[tt] NS 2745: Homeopathy: Overdosing on nothing

[Premise Checker]

No mention of the Sage of Baltimore but one of the commentators took up 
his theme that every visitor to a chiropractic have the benificent 
Darwinian theme of there being one less radio fan.

I think I benefit from homeopathic hay fever medicines. I've stopped using 
prescription medication, which my sweet Sarah got for me. If the effect is 
entirely psychological, I benefit from not having to take one (or two) 
more medications, with their inevitable side effects. I do use much less 
of it out of season. I keep an open mind on the matter, or non-matter.

NS 2745: Homeopathy: Overdosing on nothing
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527455.800-homeopathy-overdosing-on-nothing.html
* 29 January 2010 by Martin Robbins
[Comments, and I knew there would be a huge number of them, are appended.]

AT 10.23 am on 30 January, more than 300 activists in the UK, Canada,
Australia and the US will take part in a mass homeopathic "overdose".
Sceptics will publicly swallow an entire bottle of homeopathic pills to
demonstrate to the public that homeopathic remedies, the product of a
scientifically unfounded 18th-century ritual, are simply sugar pills.

Many of the sceptics will swallow 84 pills of arsenicum album, a
homeopathic remedy based on arsenic which is used to treat a range of
symptoms, including food poisoning and insomnia.

The aim of the "10:23" campaign, led by the Merseyside Skeptics
Society, based in Liverpool, UK, is to raise public awareness of just
exactly what homeopathy is, and to put pressure on the UK's leading
pharmacist, Boots, to remove the remedies from sale.

The campaign is called 10:23 in honour of the Avogadro constant
(approximately 6 × 1023, the number of atoms or molecules in one mole
of a substance), of which more later.

That such a protest is even necessary in 2010 is remarkable, but
somehow the homeopathic industry has not only survived into the 21st
century, but prospered. In the UK alone more than £40 million is spent
annually on homeopathic treatments, with £4 million of this being
sucked from the National Health Service budget. Yet the basis for
homeopathy defies the laws of physics, and high-quality clinical trials
have never been able to demonstrate that it works beyond the placebo
effect.

The discipline is based on three "laws"; the law of similars, the law
of infinitesimals and the law of succussion. The law of similars states
that something which causes your symptoms will cure your symptoms, so
that, for example, as caffeine keeps you awake, it can also be a cure
for insomnia. Of course, that makes little sense, since drinking
caffeine, well, keeps you awake.

Next is the law of infinitesimals, which claims that diluting a
substance makes it more potent. Homeopaths start by diluting one volume
of their remedy--arsenic oxide, in the case of arsenicum album--in 99
volumes of distilled water or alcohol to create a "centesimal". They
then dilute one volume of the centesimal in 99 volumes of water or
alcohol, and so on, up to 30 times. Application of Avogadro's constant
tells you that a dose of such a "30C" recipe is vanishingly unlikely to
contain even a single molecule of the active ingredient.

The third pillar of homeopathy is the law of succussion. This states -
and I'm not making this up--that by tapping the liquid in a special
way during the dilution process, a memory of the active ingredient is
somehow imprinted on it. This explains how water is able to carry a
memory of arsenic oxide, but apparently not of the contents of your
local sewer network.

The final preparation is generally dropped onto a sugar pill which the
patient swallows.

Homeopaths claim that the application of these three laws results in a
remedy that, even though it contains not a single molecule of the
original ingredient, somehow carries an "energy signature" of it that
nobody can measure or detect.

Unsurprisingly, when tested under rigorous scientific conditions, in
randomised, controlled and double-blind trials, homeopathic remedies
have consistently been shown to be no better than a placebo. Of course,
the placebo effect is quite powerful, but it's a bit like justifying
building a car without any wheels on the basis that you can still enjoy
the comfy leather seats and play with the gear shift.

Even some retailers who sell the treatments have admitted there is no
evidence that they work. In November, Paul Bennett, the superintendent
pharmacist at Boots, appeared before the UK parliament's Commons
Science and Technology Committee's "evidence check" on homeopathy. He
was questioned by Member of Parliament Phil Willis, who asked: "Do they
work beyond the placebo effect?"

"I have no evidence before me to suggest that they are efficacious,"
Bennett replied. He defended Boots's decision to sell homeopathic
remedies on the grounds of consumer choice. "A large number of our
consumers actually do believe they are efficacious, but they are
licensed medicinal products and, therefore, we believe it is right to
make them available," he said.

You might agree. You might also argue that homeopathy is harmless: if
people want to part with their money for sugar pills and nobody is
breaking the law, why not let them? To some extent that's true -
there's only so much damage you can do with sugar pills short of
feeding them to a diabetic or dropping a large crate of them on
someone's head.

However, we believe there is a risk in perpetuating the notion that
homeopathy is equivalent to modern medicine. People may delay seeking
appropriate treatment for themselves or their children.
We believe there is a risk in perpetuating the idea that homeopathy is
equivalent to modern medicine

We accept that we are unlikely to convince the true believers.
Homeopathy has many ways to sidestep awkward questions, such as
rejecting the validity of randomised controlled trials, or claiming
that homeopathic remedies only work if you have symptoms of the malady
they purport to cure. Our aim is to reach out to the general public
with our simple message: "There is nothing in it".

Boots and other retailers are perfectly entitled to continue selling
homeopathic remedies if they so wish, and consumers are perfectly
entitled to keep on buying them. But hopefully the 10:23 campaign will
ram home our message to the public. In the 21st century, with decades
of progress behind us, it is surreal that governments are prepared to
spend millions of tax pounds on homeopathy. There really is nothing in
it.

Martin Robbins is a spokesperson for the 10:23 campaign (1023.org.uk).
He writes at layscience.net
---
All Comments--Homeopathy: Overdosing on nothing
http://www.newscientist.com/commenting/browse?id=mg20527455.800

Placebo Power

Thu Jan 28 00:21:25 GMT 2010 by James137

re: "a risk in perpetuating the notion that homeopathy is equivalent to
modern medicine."
Many modern medicines and medical procedures don't work any better than
placebos in clinical trials but may have serious side effects.
More effective placebos may be the safest medicine to offer when
medical practitioners are using a trial and error approach--which is
all too frequently the case in practice.

*Placebo Power

Thu Jan 28 19:37:28 GMT 2010 by phayes

If you know of specific examples of such serious medical malpractices,
James137, you should report them to the appropriate authorities

*Placebo Power

Fri Jan 29 16:44:08 GMT 2010 by woundedduck

Trials of many anti-depressants show their effects are no better than
placebo. James137 could report it to the FDA, but they're the ones who
approved the drugs in the first place

*Placebo Power

Fri Jan 29 17:38:55 GMT 2010 by phayes

Our knowledge of certain anti-depressants has been updated recently,
yes, and if FDA advice and medical practice didn't--if necessary -
alter accordingly, then a complaint would be justified

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 03:52:04 GMT 2010 by Think Again

Homeopaths dont view doze as the physical amount of the medication. To
them the correct doze could be any amount of the sugar pills as long as
its taken at a single time.
So purely scientifically, these people should take several different
homeopathic medications and see what happens. Just eating more of the
stuff does not address the hypothesis.
Also they could take higher potencies (more dilute).
They could also take different meds that are supposed to conflict or
react badly.
So the skeptics have not designed a valid experiment in this case.

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 17:40:24 GMT 2010 by Joker

After over-dosing on this post, I dozed off.

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 21:33:43 GMT 2010 by Michale

SSRI are more effective than placebo in combination with cognitive
behavioural therapy (CBT). What hasn't been studied, however, is a
sugar pill in combination with CBT, this would be a fair comparison.
CBT is also as effective as placebo when taken alone, that is, with
regards to depression. The severity of depression must also be taken
into account. SSRI are proven to be more effective than placebo when it
is severe; however, it is hypothesized that this is due to a lack of
responsiveness to the placebo effect in severely depressed patients
(Kirsch et al., 2008)

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 01:10:32 GMT 2010 by best online store
http://www.discountba.com

sneaker: airmax 90, 95 etc $35-42 free shiping.
boots: UGG etc $60 free shiping.
Jeans : polo etc $35-49 free shipping
T-shirts : A&f etc $12-18 free shipping.
hoodies: 5ive etc $28-40 free shipping
handbags: Ed hardy etc $35-68 free shipping
Sunglasses: LV etc $17 free shipping
Belts: BOSS etc $15 free shipping
Caps: red bull etc $12-15 free shipping
Watches:rolex etc $80 free shipping

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 21:48:28 GMT 2010 by Shayna

Um, how about nearly every Western medical practitioner EVER!
(regarding the trial and error approach). Aside from which, I might
add, that the majority of pharmaceutical prescriptions are still only
at the stage of only treating symptoms NOT the cause.
Example: I might be prescribed Zoloft to correct an imbalance of
chemicals that's affecting my mood and ability to function at the best
of my abilities, and it may have a positive effect (at least
superficially) but what's CAUSING the imbalance?
Too many people just want to take a pill and feel better. I often
wonder how many people would be "cured" (or at least see significant
improvement in their "symptoms" if only they ate less processed foods,
sugar, etc and were more active. Less pills in general seems like a
better idea rather than attacking homeopathy. At least homeopathy isn't
hurting anyone: there's no, "possible side effects may include a
nosebleed, your head falling off, your feet swelling up or death".

*Placebo Power

Fri Jan 29 15:17:30 GMT 2010 by Sam Cook

You'll find that they do work better than the placebo as that's what
they're measured against. They may not work for everyone but they work
better than a sugar pill.
And you can't have a more effective placebo.

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 00:06:29 GMT 2010 by Conrad

A lot of FDA approved treatments have serious side effects. If the
first rule of medicine is "first of all do no harm," the ineffective
treatments with negative side effects are not medicine, they are
assaults. Of course someone makes a lot of money from these assaults.

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 21:57:34 GMT 2010 by Shayna

So...a doctor prescribing a new medication with tons of potential, even
deadly side effects in order to "cure" something like...muscle aches,
isn't doing harm? I disagree...he's doing harm. It's become the
practice of MEDICINE (i.e. pills) rather than the practice of HEALING.
Someone also makes a lot (a LOT MORE) money off of prescriptions. I
wouldn't have such a problem with prescriptions (I even take one,
myself) if doctor weren't pushed and paid to prescribe them. A doctor's
only impetus for a prescription should be a help his/her patient. Any
kind of benefit that goes to the doctor will, inevitably, effect his
likeliness to prescribe.
Again, not saying homeopathy is perfect, but it's not hurting anyone
and people should take some damn responsibility for themselves. If they
do research and want to try what may or may not be, essentially, a
sugar pill. That's their own choice. We haven't made alcohol (not
really a beverage) or McDonalds (not really food) or crappy mineral
oil-based body-creams (not really hydrating) illegal even though they
don't do much of anything either

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 19:28:59 GMT 2010 by Eric Kvaalen

Contrary to what this article says, New Scientist has also published at
least one article saying that homeopathy is more effective than
placebos. Here's a quote:
Since what has come to be known as the Benveniste affair, scientific
attention has concentrated on statistical reviews of reputable clinical
trials. Most notably, Klaus Linde of the Centre for Complementary
Medicine Research at the Technical University of Munich led an analysis
of 89 homeopathic trials. Published in The Lancet in 1997 (vol 350, p
834), the study concluded that the trial results were "not compatible
with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are
completely due to placebo". A follow-up paper in 1998 in The Journal of
Alternative and Complementary Medicine (vol 4, p 371) went further,
concluding that "individualised homeopathy has an effect over placebo".
26 May, 2001 (long URL--click here)

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 20:30:12 GMT 2010 by phayes

Quite right: New Scientist also published the infamous "emdrive"
article and it does seem to have a less than admirable record where
homeopathy is concerned too.
That Jane Seymour article appears to be an exercise in (careful,
disguised) credulity: just in that quote she refers to a nonsense
conclusion in some 'follow-up' to the flawed Linde et al 1997 paper
instead of the Linde et al 1999 "oops!" paper.
More recently, the fourth of Michael Brooks' 13 Things That Do Not Make
Sense was the ridiculous "Belfast homeopathy results" farce.

*Placebo Power

Sat Jan 30 19:53:56 GMT 2010 by Skeptic23

name one. just one .

*Homeopathy Is Grass-root Psychiatry- Pills Are Incidental

Thu Jan 28 00:37:39 GMT 2010 by Bhupat Rawal

Homeopathic healing is a two-step process. First,the patient discloses
personality traits and the symptoms to the homeopath- like revealing it
all to a psychiatrist. Homeopath is trained to be a good listener- like
a psychiatrist. Pouring out what's on one's mind is indeed, healing
through stress relief so the body could heal itself. Second, is getting
the pills.On the basis of our current knowledge of what these pills
are, it is reasonable to credit the Homeopathic pioneers with
unwittingly discovering the placebos as therapeutic tools, especially
in a era when psychiatry was in its infancy. In a purist sense and on
the basis of contemporary knowledge, Homeopathy could be renamed as-
Placebopathy. But, would that not deter believers from consulting a
Homeopath? The billion dollar market proves the value of such
consultations- the pills, as placebos,appear to be incidental but
essential component of the therapy.

*Homeopathy Is Grass-root Psychiatry- Pills Are Incidental

Thu Jan 28 11:32:41 GMT 2010 by David B.

So a canny homoeopath could undercut his or her competition by using
untreated sugarpills and ordinary water in place of the carefully
prepared dilutions? I wonder what the BHA would say about that?

*Homeopathy Is Grass-root Psychiatry- Pills Are Incidental

Fri Jan 29 18:40:53 GMT 2010 by Chris

But most Homeopaths would claim their medicines, as part of their
treatment, is actually do something. This is dishonest behaviour and
has no place in medicine. Everybody has a right to know that their
pills are no more effective than taking a sugar pill. Yes the placebo
effect has merit as a treatment methodology where efficacious
medication is not available or appropriate--let's investigate how to
deliver this. Yes a treatment regime that includes being listened to
and counselled is a worthy aim and no doubt promotes healing and
well-being. But packaging those worthy and proven therapies into a
profession built on lies and fooling the patient (and often the
practitioner themselves) into believing they will get better is
pernicious and misleading. Well-meaning people will inflict needless
harm on themselves on others where proven efficacious treatments are
available. This is why we need to pull publicity stunts to get this
issue the attention it deserves. Please, let the debate include the
aforementioned useful therapeutic strategies that homeopathy exploits
to convince the uninitiated that they offer any more than these. Please
let us learn about and exploit the placebo effect to good effect, and
the value of listening to and counselling the patient, but no more lies
--we know better now.

*Homeopathy Is Grass-root Psychiatry- Pills Are Incidental

Fri Jan 29 21:38:08 GMT 2010 by stoffer

Well, but this lie is very important to achieving the placebo effect.
Placebo effect works only if we do not know that it is a placebo. What
cures us is our mind tricked into thinking that the body is getting
medication. The false belief cures us. It sounds strange, but well,
world is strange. Think of general relativity and quantum physics. To
any "sane" person not exposed to them before, both quantum phyiscs and
general realtivity are really bizarre. That is what world really is -
bizzare.
Coming back to homeopathy--I am against banning homeopathy, but I am
also agains funding it from national health care system.

*Homeopathy Is Grass-root Psychiatry- Pills Are Incidental

Sat Jan 30 22:04:42 GMT 2010 by Shayna

So...you seem to be well versed in the field of homeopathy. My
understanding was always that the idea is that...hmmm.how do I put
this. If you have oily skin, your instinct would be to avoid putting
oil on it at all, so you don't make it more oily. The reality, however,
is that if you treat oily skin with natural oil, it actually signals
your skin that more oil production is unnecessary. Isn't that the same
idea as homeopathy. Treat the "symptom" with something the same in
order to decrease the body's instinct to continue functioning the way
it is
1 more reply

*Quantum Entanglement

Thu Jan 28 07:54:43 GMT 2010 by Amudhan

I know this sounds crazy, but has anyone ever checked whether the
molecules of say, arsenic oxide or caffeine, are somehow getting
entangled with the water molecules on a quantum level?
Just saying.

*Quantum Entanglement

Thu Jan 28 23:56:53 GMT 2010 by Jimbo

...and entangled along with the thousands of other substances that also
contaminate the diluent and are held in its memory, but which the
remedy magically knows to ignore?

*Quantum Entanglement

Fri Jan 29 17:02:28 GMT 2010 by Technobabble is bad

What does 'getting entangled with the water molecules on a quantum
level' mean and how would you examine this in a lab?
No, I don't know either.

*Quantum Entanglement

Fri Jan 29 18:59:59 GMT 2010 by Twozero

Amudhan, I don't think you fully understand the concept of entanglement

*Quantum Entanglement

Fri Jan 29 23:45:30 GMT 2010 by Liza

Who does?

*Quantum Entanglement

Sat Jan 30 17:42:35 GMT 2010 by Joker

Not as bright as a Bell today Lisa?

*Quantum Entanglement

Sat Jan 30 20:38:21 GMT 2010 by phayes

I think you'd better Leggett before she sees that remark and gives you
a whack on the Horne.
1 more reply

*Homeopathic Remedies Article

Thu Jan 28 14:18:45 GMT 2010 by Bruce Murphy

I and my family have enjoyed tremendous success with Martin & Pleasance
Homeopathic products in Melbourne. I have often tried alternatives from
Drug Companies and they are
nowhere as effective in the following uses--Mag. Phos. for Muscle
cramps etc; First Aid for Imflation; Glandular for common colds is
brilliant; Sinus for Head colds and Hay fever;
and many other ailments that we rarely need to use.

*Homeopathic Remedies Article

Fri Jan 29 15:36:30 GMT 2010 by Dan

Stating that you and your family have benefited from homeopathy is
absolutely meaningless, because--as the article clearly states--
homeopathic medicines work as a placebo . Did you even read the
article, and if so, do you even know what a placebo is?

*Homeopathic Remedies Article

Fri Jan 29 23:31:16 GMT 2010 by Ralph

I and my family have enjoyed tremendous success with pointing a bone at
people we don't like, in Sydney. I have often tried alternatives but
they Are not as effective

*Homeopathic Remedies Article

Sat Jan 30 02:47:31 GMT 2010 by Phil

To quote a doctor friend of mine...'most ailments eventually get better
on their own if you just leave them alone'

*Homeopathic Remedies Article

Sat Jan 30 03:42:46 GMT 2010 by Travis

Lol lovely. I guess the placebo effect works in relieving your stress
or fear and believing you going to get better right?
I am personally confident about getting better from small ailments and
never take anything unless its serious, and I always get better much
quicker then friends who focus so much energy on their ailments and
take every medication and painkiller they can get their hands on.
I believe its just a state of mind, Like the guy said above, leave it
alone and it will go by itself.
Must be a lot healthier then all the unknown side effects coming from
meds, even if the meds do allow you to get well quicker.

*Homeopathic Remedies Article

Sat Jan 30 04:13:59 GMT 2010 by Liza

"I guess the placebo effect works in relieving your stress or fear and
believing you going to get better right?"
It's a bit more than that. Just check this out:
(long URL--click here)
To be honest, I think using placebo effect as the control group for the
testing of new medication (standard practice) is outrageous as long as
we have no idea how placebo works and what it does. Placebo is
fascinating in terms of what it can tell us about how our brains work,
and the brain/body interaction, and offers a great opportunity for a
new generation of medication. "Just placebo" many people say?? It
heals!!
2 more replies

*Homeopathy For Everyone

Thu Jan 28 16:07:56 GMT 2010 by Dr. Nancy Malik
http://www.google.com/profiles/Dr.NancyMalik

Real (Homeopathic) medicine cures even when Conventional Allopathic
Medicine (CAM) fails

*Homeopathy For Everyone

Fri Jan 29 15:21:15 GMT 2010 by Sam Cook

You mean like AIDS and cancer? I think there are a lot of corpses in
south Africa that were advised of this as well (after the government
decided that the retro virus that was result of thousands of hour hard
research was a con and that these sugar pills and water were a much
better option).

*Homeopathy For Everyone

Fri Jan 29 17:10:12 GMT 2010 by The Geoff

If you have *any* clinical proof of that can you please submit it to
the Nobel committee? There's a hefty financial prize waiting which
could do a lot of good when donated to the charity of your choice. Do
some good for the human species, claim your Nobel!
(Incidentally, I for one am going to overdose by an infinite amount by
not taking a homeopathic remedy on the 30th)

*Homeopathy For Everyone

Fri Jan 29 19:03:19 GMT 2010 by Twozero

OP is just trying to save her profession. I've spoken with some
'homeopaths', they know it's all bullshit, but it's a good source of
income.

*Homeopathy For Everyone

Fri Jan 29 19:14:40 GMT 2010 by Sylvia

Ah, can I please have the evidence for what you are saying here?

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Thu Jan 28 20:40:36 GMT 2010 by SC

When I was young, and suffering a lot from hayfever, especially in
exams season, my parents went to a pharmacy and, not knowing any
better, bought me tablets of homeopathic "medicine". I took these
tablets for several years, and didn't really see much difference
between taking the tablets and not. I guess I continued taking them
because I hoped that they would work.
The result of this was that not only did I suffer needlessly going
through reams and reams of tissues and distress every year, but because
the tablets had had no effect, my child's reasoning deduced that my
body was resistant to effects from medicines. This line of thought was
enhanced by other similarly useless "remedies" not working either. It
was years before I took any medicine as an adult, and I can remember
being very surprised to find out that real medicine did actually have
an effect.
Homeopathy is not harmless

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Fri Jan 29 15:18:23 GMT 2010 by Dan

My homeopathy experience is exactly the same as yours SC, pretty much
to the letter!

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Fri Jan 29 15:56:37 GMT 2010 by Liza

When I was a kid, I suffered from a itchy rash for years. My mother
took me first to several conventional doktors- GPs, then
dermatologists. None of their creams and medications ever worked.
Cortisone would make it go away but the rash always came back as soon
as I stopped using it. Then my mom tried a homeopath. He gave me one
sugar tablet. The rash disappeared within days, and never came back.
Now, if this was just placebo, then why did I not feel any placebo
effect with the other doktors? I was a small kid and had no idea what
kind of dokters my mother was taking me to.
I know this is just one anecdote, and not valid evidence at all. In
fact, I've had several negative experiences with homeopathy later on.
And I am totally sceptical as to the philosophy behind their
treatments. I can't help thinking though that the placebo effect is
both more powerful and more complex than we realise, and should not be
dismissed as "just placebo" if it actually heals people.

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Fri Jan 29 16:31:05 GMT 2010 by Richard

"I know this is just one anecdote, and not valid evidence at all"
I believe you have answered your own question.

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Fri Jan 29 18:26:53 GMT 2010 by Liza

I know it's not valid evidence for homeopathy being an effective
treatment, but I do believe it is an indication that something is going
on. Something unexplained so far. Many people have such stories. Which
is why homeopathy remains so popular despite sceptics railing against
it. I've got another anecdote for you:
When my baby daughter (3-4 months) suffered from colic and nothing
seemed to work, my very-much-into-homeopathy aunt gave her a classic
homeopathical remedy. The baby reacted immediately and became quiet
within seconds (she usually cried for hours), on 2 separate occasions.
My scepticism started to waver, but when I tried it myself it never
worked. An explanation? Did my scepticism prevent the medicine from
working when I tried it out on our baby? Or did the baby pick up my
aunt's confidence in the treatment, and simply reacted on that?
7 more replies

Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Sat Jan 30 01:56:08 GMT 2010 by derekcolman

Liza, probably just coincidence. Children with eczema often grow out of
it, and you might have taken the pill at that stage. If it was an
allergic reaction, the allergen might have been removed at that moment.
For instance, did you happen to take the pill shortly after your cat
died?

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Sat Jan 30 04:02:57 GMT 2010 by Liza

"For instance, did you happen to take the pill shortly after your cat
died?"
No, nothing like that. I was tested for allergies, and nothing was
found. In fact, there is one possible explanation that makes sense
(apart from sheer coincidence). The excema always appeared in september
and went away in July. Most MDs thought in terms of a reaction to
sunlight during the summer months, or some foods consumed during the
year but never in summer, but the homeopath had a long chat with us and
suggested it was probably a stress reaction to school. Now, no change
in the school situation was made, and I received no councelling to help
me deal with stress, but maybe the mere recognition that school had me
stressed enough to cause eczema helped me get over it. Note that this
explanation does not make anymore sense in terms of traditional
understanding of eczema than a homeopathic cure does.

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Fri Jan 29 19:22:08 GMT 2010 by Sylvia

And that's what happens so often when amateurs buy their own remedy
without consulting a homeopath. A homeopathic remedy for chronic
diseases has to match the person's personality and not the disease.
Homeopathy is harmless--some people using it improperly are not!

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Sat Jan 30 01:48:40 GMT 2010 by The Geoff

Precisely--it's harmless because it does nothing. It has to be
tailored to the person's personality because you have to talk them into
believing it. I'm torn between my "being nice" side which believes
gullible people *should* be duped into fraudulent cures which are
demonstratably placebo, simply because it make them feel better, which
is good...and the side of me that wishes people were just a tiny bit
more knowledgeable in the ways of....well, atoms and that. And spent
their money on real things that made them feel good, rather than
placebo effect. Hey, send me a tenner and you'll feel better within a
week, money back if you don't. I'm right, I'm rich, and I'm a bad
person in my particular ethical weirdness

*Homeopathy Does Do Damage

Sat Jan 30 11:02:23 GMT 2010 by Dave Baldock

This homeopathy thingy has parallels with religious beliefs. Should
people carry on believing in something false if it makes them feel
better? Or should they accept the sometimes colder reality and live
potentially unhappier but more honest lives? I personally choose to
keep my money in my pocket and my feet on the ground.

*Homeopathy

Fri Jan 29 15:31:16 GMT 2010 by Felicity Harper

I don't think the majority of people who buy homeopathic remedies in
Boots have any idea what lies behind them. They just think it is
something you take at home without a prescription. If it has the word
'natural' in it, they think it is a herbal remedy. After all, it starts
with 'h'. So, it is a great idea to actually tell people what they are
buying. As for people who genuinely believe in it and go to a
homeopathic practitioner, I don't think they would pay for the services
if they didn't believe it worked, so there is no chance they will
change their minds.

*I Am A Skeptic Too But Some Things Need To Be Explained

Fri Jan 29 15:45:22 GMT 2010 by Prashant

There have been several well documented studies that appear to show the
influence of a substance that has been apparently diluted out of
existence in a solution. The Belfast study (one of many available on
the newscientist website) is one. This is what one article in NS said:
"MADELEINE Ennis, a pharmacologist at Queen's University, Belfast, was
the scourge of homeopathy. She railed against its claims that a
chemical remedy could be diluted to the point where a sample was
unlikely to contain a single molecule of anything but water, and yet
still have a healing effect. Until, that is, she set out to prove once
and for all that homeopathy was bunkum.
In her most recent paper, Ennis describes how her team looked at the
effects of ultra-dilute solutions of histamine on human white blood
cells involved in inflammation. These "basophils" release histamine
when the cells are under attack. Once released, the histamine stops
them releasing any more. The study, replicated in four different labs,
found that homeopathic solutions--so dilute that they probably didn't
contain a single histamine molecule--worked just like histamine. Ennis
might not be happy with the homeopaths' claims, but she admits that an
effect cannot be ruled out
.....(deleted)
You can understand why Ennis remains sceptical. And it remains true
that no homeopathic remedy has ever been shown to work in a large
randomised placebo-controlled clinical trial. But the Belfast study
(Inflammation Research, vol 53, p 181) suggests that something is going
on. "We are," Ennis says in her paper, "unable to explain our findings
and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this
phenomenon." If the results turn out to be real, she says, the
implications are profound: we may have to rewrite physics and
chemistry."

*I Am A Skeptic Too But Some Things Need To Be Explained

Fri Jan 29 16:14:55 GMT 2010 by phayes

'But the Belfast study (Inflammation Research, vol 53, p 181) suggests
that something is going on.'
No it doesn't. Those post-Benveniste basophil experiments are
notorious. Ennis is not the only investigator in that area to have
missed the (rather obvious) explanation but not all of them have failed
to cross the pons asinorum:
"We were not able to confirm the previously reported large effects of
homeopathic histamine dilutions on basophil function of the examined
donor. Seemingly, minor variables of the experimental set up can lead
to significant differences of the results if not properly controlled."
Guggisberg, A.G., et al., Replication study concerning the effects of
homeopathic dilutions of histamine on human basophil degranulation in
vitro. Complement Ther Med, 2005. 13(2): p. 91-100.

*I Am A Skeptic Too But Some Things Need To Be Explained

Fri Jan 29 16:42:39 GMT 2010 by Prashant

Unfortunately, it appears that uniform standards are not being applied
to the studies. Going merely by what you've quoted I'd say that not
being able to confirm previously reported effects is not the same as
explaining the effect. A conclusion such as "Seemingly, minor variables
of the experimental set up can lead to significant differences of the
results if not properly controlled" amounts to dismissing a study while
APPEARING to provide an explanation. It doesn't look like they know
what those minor variables are. If they did, it would have been a
simple matter to adjust those variables and reproduce the previous
results, no? Or they'd name those "variables". So simple.
Do you have something better to offer?
It is my observation that often the defenders of science don't follow
the scientific method to reach their conclusions. Personal biases play
a major supporting role.

*I Am A Skeptic Too But Some Things Need To Be Explained

Fri Jan 29 17:31:56 GMT 2010 by phayes

Rather than making incorrect assumptions about the study and then
criticising it on spurious grounds, perhaps you could read it first?:
http://www.homeopathy.org/research/basic/Guggisberg.pdf
Anyway, we 'defenders of science' would contend that the scientific
method demands a demonstration that a hypothesised causal effect
actually exists before an explanation for it is sought
2 more replies

I Am A Skeptic Too But Some Things Need To Be Explained

Sat Jan 30 18:41:35 GMT 2010 by Eric Kvaalen

A lot of people think that they're being scientific when they dismiss a
result if someone else fails to repeat it! Actually this is very
unscientific. It's called ignoring evidence.
It is sometimes legitimate to dismiss a result if it can be explained
as normal variation of a Gaussian variable. I don't think that applies
in this case.
1 more reply

*Mastitis?

Fri Jan 29 16:41:26 GMT 2010 by woundedduck

I've read that homeopathy successfully treats mastitis in cows? Anyone?

*Mastitis?

Fri Jan 29 18:59:05 GMT 2010 by Anttix
http://twitter.com/Anttix

That'll be bulls. ;)

*Mastitis?

Fri Jan 29 19:10:11 GMT 2010 by Twozero

I read that bush caused 911.

*Super Sugar Water

Fri Jan 29 16:52:59 GMT 2010 by Mike Scott

If the homeopaths are to be believed then surely the water they use for
the dilutions already contains many millions of molecules acquired on
its journey through the earth and time...... ergo.... how can their
(non-existent) molecule exert its influence in the face of all this
overwhelming competition from the molecules that are already there (or
not there !) ? ...... what a load of piffle !!!

*Super Sugar Water

Fri Jan 29 19:11:19 GMT 2010 by Twozero

Didn't you read the article? Homeopaths have to tap the dilution to
tell it what to become. Homeopath's are pretty much magical you know.

*Super Sugar Water

Fri Jan 29 19:49:45 GMT 2010 by Liza

Yes, and as to that, I can't speak for individual homeopaths preparing
their own dilutions, but I worked for a major homeopathic medicine
producing company as a job student for a while, and I can assure you
the tapping rule is not followed very securely by the laboratory
personnel, especially by closing time when the last orders have to be
hurried out of the door...

*Super Sugar Water

Sat Jan 30 17:49:43 GMT 2010 by Dave Baldock

They could make even more money if they diluted the sugar a few billion
times as well. And isn't it a pity they can't think of a way of
diluting the water... Or perhaps they could just give you a bottle with
a single drop in the bottom and say it had been diluted with air.

*Burden Of Proof

Fri Jan 29 17:03:10 GMT 2010 by Jean Pierre Jansen

Many of the reasons of the 10-23 campaign are based on the notion that
there is no molecule left in homeopathic dilutions. That seems true to
me. However, why don't we see any reasonable replies to the thesis of a
much awarded materials science professor, dr. Rustum Roy, who states
that the burden of proff lies with those who assert that homeopathy
cannot work because there is no molecule left? (see: Roy R, Tiller WA,
Bell IR, Hoover MR. The structure of liquid water; Novel insights from
materials research; Potential relevance to homeopathy. Materials
research Innovations. 2005;577-608.). And why no reactions on research
publications by physicists like Louis Rey (Rey L. Thermoluminescence of
ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride. Physica
A. 2003;323:67-74. and Rey L. Thermoluminescence of deuterated
amorphous and crystalline ices. Radiation Phys Chem. 2005;72:587-594.)?
These results are not contradicted in the professional literature.
I find this disturbing, like someone commented in the NewScientist back
in 2001 on a publication by Samal (Samal S, Geckeler KE. Unexpected
solute aggregation in water on dilution. Chemical Communication.
2001;21:2224.).
Please New Scientists journalists team, dive into this subject, and
balance a campaign that doesn't bother that there is good research to
the contrary of their opinion.

*Burden Of Proof

Fri Jan 29 18:00:13 GMT 2010 by phayes

"dr. Rustum Roy, who states that the burden of proff lies with those
who assert that homeopathy cannot work because there is no molecule
left? "
That's a strawman /and/ a shifting of the burden of proof. Roy and some
of the others there are notorious "homeopathy/water memory" crackpots.
Various results and speculations concerning the structure of water have
actually been dealt with--mostly on the grounds that where they are
not merely feeble speculation, they are irrelevant, and provide no
support whatsoever to the absurd claims of homeopathy.
http://www.dcscience.net/?p=17

*Thx

Fri Jan 29 18:02:05 GMT 2010 by savocado
http://www.twitter.com/savocado

Thank you for covering this issue!

*Vitamin Water! Acai Extract! Vitamin B Suppliment!

Fri Jan 29 18:20:07 GMT 2010 by PeopleNeedMoreKnowledgeOfPhysiology
http://www.bikinidrivingschool.com

I agree, if the power of suggestion is really this powerful, then
people dont need MEDICINE, they need MEDITATION. Their mind is the
cure, if they only knew they diddnt need the sugar pill as a crutch.
I feel the same way whenever I hear some retard talk about using Acai
berries to "clense" themselves, or how "vitamin b gives you a rush!" I
wonder if they also sacrifice a fattened hen at the Temple of Jupiter
to cleanse their spirits...

*Who Cares?

Fri Jan 29 18:39:57 GMT 2010 by ronald

As long as government money isn't used to pay for this stuff, I don't
see the problem in letting stupid people die because of their own
stupidity. Survival of the fittest right? Homeopathy will die out with
the idiots who use it. Hopefully they pray while they are taking these
sugar pills... I heard that triples the strength!

*Who Cares?

Fri Jan 29 19:13:38 GMT 2010 by Twozero

Taxpayers are paying for it, according to the article.
And homeopathy isn't harmless, just read some of the posts here of
people's personal experiences.

*Who Cares?

Fri Jan 29 20:26:43 GMT 2010 by Alex Pryce
http://www.edinburghskeptics.info

Ronald,
The NHS spends £4 Million a year on Homeopathy. Tax payers (government
as you state) money IS being used to pay for it.

*Who Cares?

Sat Jan 30 18:05:32 GMT 2010 by E

Survival of the fittest requires those to be selected out to never
reproduce.
Not only do stupid people survive well enough to reproduce, they
reproduce in far greater numbers than smarter people.
Helps explain why a population continues to exist that buys into these
bunk beliefs.

*I've Got The Explanation For Homeopathy

Fri Jan 29 18:40:07 GMT 2010 by Liza

It's all quantum fluctuations. We happen to live on a planet where
quantum fluctuations heal persons whenever they take homeopathic
medication, but only if they already believed in it. So it never works
for sceptics or under controlled trials, since everyone knows quantum
uncertainty disappears under observation :)

*I've Got The Explanation For Homeopathy

Fri Jan 29 19:16:46 GMT 2010 by Twozero

"Many New Age confidence tricksters seem to have realized that a bit of
particle physics technobabble and some $10 words borrowed from a
neuroscience textbook will make their chakras, ley lines and spirit
voices look much more plausible to the poorly-educated, credulous rubes
that are the most avid consumers of this new and improved brand of
snake oil.
It's ironic that, in an era where more and more people proclaim a
distrust of science and a belief in supernatural forces, the quacks,
faux-gurus, self-improvement charlatans and pseudo-mystics are
increasingly turning to "science" to prop up their fairy stories. I
wish they'd make up their minds: either science is bunk and the
universe is powered by pixies, or science is the best tool available
for explaining reality.
What's not acceptable is to borrow the window dressing from science to
prop up grossly unscientific beliefs. I think we should call such
waffle "Scienciness.""

*I've Got The Explanation For Homeopathy

Fri Jan 29 19:45:26 GMT 2010 by Liza

Hey, can't you recognise a joke when you see one, especially when it's
followed by a smiley...

*I've Got The Explanation For Homeopathy

Fri Jan 29 20:06:15 GMT 2010 by AS

Well, homeopaths are are a pretty much a "quantum" sized group.
Lets start observing them!

*I've Got The Explanation For Homeopathy

Sat Jan 30 17:57:30 GMT 2010 by Dave Baldock

That's it, Liza, well done! That's why God disappears when you try to
find a way of observing him. He's everywhere in the universe at once
but only on a quantum scale, lol.

*Not A Substitute For Real Medicine

Fri Jan 29 18:40:20 GMT 2010 by Chris

The thought of people believing in homeopathy as a cure to their ills
is plain scary--logic defies it in this day and age. However it is
essentially harmless, but this makes large sums of NHS funds being
spent on it very worrying indeed.
Hopefully, as misguided as believers in homeopathy are, they will still
go to the GP if they find a lump on their body. To me, this is the only
real danger--homeopathy as a substitute for medicine--and means that
the more demonstrations pointing out the invalidity of homeopathy the
better. This way even rabid believers might still check in with their
doc first.
However--as a business plan it is quite crafty. I wish I'd thought of
selling water as 'medicine'.

*There Is Some Evidence Of An Effect.

Fri Jan 29 18:49:16 GMT 2010 by Andrew Perry

While I agree that it can be dangerous for conventional medical help to
be delayed when it is the best form to treatment to use, I have many
experiences of Homeopathy, and other forms of energy medicine, that can
not be explained by Placebo alone, for example in animals and young
babies who are not even aware they are receiving doses.
Additionally the so called Belfast study seems to indicate something
inexplicable is going on and this comes from a reputable research
source. I include some relevant text here:
MADELEINE Ennis, a pharmacologist at Queen's University, Belfast, was
the scourge of homeopathy. She railed against its claims that a
chemical remedy could be diluted to the point where a sample was
unlikely to contain a single molecule of anything but water, and yet
still have a healing effect. Until, that is, she set out to prove once
and for all that homeopathy was bunkum.
In her most recent paper, Ennis describes how her team looked at the
effects of ultra-dilute solutions of histamine on human white blood
cells involved in inflammation. These "basophils" release histamine
when the cells are under attack. Once released, the histamine stops
them releasing any more. The study, replicated in four different labs,
found that homeopathic solutions--so dilute that they probably didn't
contain a single histamine molecule--worked just like histamine. Ennis
might not be happy with the homeopaths' claims, but she admits that an
effect cannot be ruled out.
So how could it happen? Homeopaths prepare their remedies by dissolving
things like charcoal, deadly nightshade or spider venom in ethanol, and
then diluting this "mother tincture" in water again and again. No
matter what the level of dilution, homeopaths claim, the original
remedy leaves some kind of imprint on the water molecules. Thus,
however dilute the solution becomes, it is still imbued with the
properties of the remedy.
You can understand why Ennis remains sceptical. And it remains true
that no homeopathic remedy has ever been shown to work in a large
randomised placebo-controlled clinical trial. But the Belfast study
(Inflammation Research, vol 53, p 181) suggests that something is going
on. "We are," Ennis says in her paper, "unable to explain our findings
and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this
phenomenon." If the results turn out to be real, she says, the
implications are profound: we may have to rewrite physics and
chemistry.

*Homeopathy Killed My Mom!

Fri Jan 29 19:51:39 GMT 2010 by AS
http://indianmedicine.nic.in/

My mom was treated by a homeopath (BHMS) for "mouth ulcer" using
"nitric acid" homeopathic medicine for over 6 months to a year
convincing her that it was. It turned out to be cancer and it killed
her in 6 month due to the mets and the chemo and the surgery. This was
way back in 2003.
It was less than 1 cm when that homeopath started it (curable with just
surgery) and it had spread to her brain by the time we got the real
diagnosis.
To my dismay, the govt of India (I'm Indian) has now adopted Homeopathy
into its national health care scheme (link above).
Its not benign! Its a web of malignant lies!

*Homeopathy Killed My Mom!

Fri Jan 29 22:26:36 GMT 2010 by Liza

They´re not all like that. Many homeopaths also have a regular MD
education, and send patients to the hospital whenever they suspect
something serious is going on.

*Homeopathy Killed My Mom!

Fri Jan 29 23:43:09 GMT 2010 by Karl

Wouldn't practicing homeopathy with a medical education constitute
medical malpractice? And surely any homeopath claiming to have a
regular MD education would be foolish, as that would be prima facie
evidence of fraud.

*Homeopathy Killed My Mom!

Fri Jan 29 23:55:50 GMT 2010 by Liza

"surely any homeopath claiming to have a regular MD education would be
foolish"
No, the claims are genuine. It's common in Belgium. They first follow a
regular MD education, and then, not being satisfied with many of the
shortcomings of modern medical practices, move on to follow a course in
homeopathy or antroposophy. Being an MD does not guarantee you will see
through the silliness of homeopathy, especially since the patients are
often very satisfied with the homeopathic treatment. Besides, are you
so certain there is absolutely nothing in it? I've said it before, we
know very little about the placebo effect and how our brains can heal
us.

*Homeopathy Killed My Mom!

Fri Jan 29 23:12:57 GMT 2010 by Liza

Besides, conventional MD's sometimes make the same kind of lethal
mistakes/malpractices. When my grandfather went to hospital for a
check-up because he had pain and was extremely short of breath, they
told him it was nothing serious and sent him home with some vaporisers
to inhale. Six months later he was dead of lung cancer. Piquant detail:
it was his homeopathist who had urged him to go to hospital for testing
because he suspected something serious was going on.

*Homeopathy Killed My Mom!

Sat Jan 30 18:17:05 GMT 2010 by E

Then the fault lies in the person trained in a particular field.
Many MD's, especially busy primary practice ones and hospitalists,
forget to seek an explanation to a set of symptoms. Most are quite
eager to treat just the symptoms and be done with the patient. I'm
quite sure most homeopaths do the same. However, turning off your brain
in medicine is always inexcusable.
A truly well-trained MD and any scientist will always look for a
testable explanation, figure things out diagnostically (rarely the
diagnostic test is the treatment), and then proceed with treatment.
I know of this personally, when a hospitalist almost killed my father
with pneumonia by following conventional guidelines. It took a
pulmonologist to recognize and CONFIRM the flu-induced pneumonia and to
treat it appropriately.

*Logic And Happiness

Fri Jan 29 22:59:39 GMT 2010 by Nick

When saltwater evaporates, rains down into lakes and runs downstream
back to the ocean it passes through a lot of minerals in the ground.
Why do these not leave any homeopathic memory?
What is so different from the filter in a water treatment plant? Its
made out of something as well. Imagine the high concentration of
"nothing" and "homeopathic memories" water must gain from cycling
through different materials.
Anyone who understands logic realizes that homeopathy is just a
placebo. Its the hope of a cure which creates the effect. Anyone who
can control their thinking, feelings and mood through meditation can
also achieve the placebo effect. Would I be so bold to claim that the
placebo effect = positive thinking? Most people
can't think positively without stimulation. Instead of gurgling down
the "nothing" pills do something that makes you happy and you will get
an even better effect han placebo!

*Homeopathic A & E Is Mandatory Viewing

Sat Jan 30 00:49:14 GMT 2010 by Dominic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

*I Wonder

Sat Jan 30 02:58:47 GMT 2010 by Phil

When a homeopath falls over in the forest, does the noise make sense?

*I Wonder

Sat Jan 30 18:06:41 GMT 2010 by Dave Baldock

Q. "When a homeopath falls over in the forest, does the noise make
sense?"
A. Only if you attenuate it a few trillion times and sell the recording
to gullible people.

*Sometimes Modern Medicine It Doesn't Work

Sat Jan 30 03:19:26 GMT 2010 by Brendan
http://www.heel.com/Heel_com_Research_English.homotox?ActiveID=2282

I development IBS when I joined university, so after months of
traditional medicine, I was always sleepy and there were pain with
these medicines(antispasmodic, etc.). I tried biological-regulative
medicine as a complement. It is like a mix of chinese medicine and
homeopathy and it has been working and then I left my pills and now
there is no secondary effects like confusion or sleepiness.
I guess you can't say(10:23 campaign) obstinately that it doesn't work
if it can bring health to people like me.
I found this page about the company of two of my new medicines
http://www.heel.com/Heel_com_Research_English.homotox?ActiveID=2282
Greetings

*Sometimes Modern Medicine It Doesn't Work

Sat Jan 30 18:25:58 GMT 2010 by E

First, I hate posters who believe their n=1 defines the way the world
works. You crossed that line with your "I guess you can't say... "
statement.
Second, IBS is known medically to be associate with a number of PSYCH
issues (from the ACP and Mayo Clinic). Anything suggestive, including
placebo, had a high chance of being effective in you. That your IBS was
linked with entering university (new stresses) may support that
observation.
Lastly, don't say modern medicine doesn't work if you didn't get
management from someone knowledgeable about IBS, such as a
gastroenterologist who regularly sees or does research on these kinds
of patients.

*Placebo's Work ...

Sat Jan 30 10:32:16 GMT 2010 by Golodh

Placebo's work. That insight is a old as medicine itself.
In addition, homeopathic preparations are totally innocuous (apart
perhaps from the alcohol that's the main ingredient for many tinctures,
but even that is consumed in doses of a few drops per day).
If they don't work (and there is no evidence that they do; that has
been well researched in double-blind tests that remove the placebo
effect), they don't do any harm either (except for the waste of a few
quid per week).
Whilst I sympathise with the position taken by the sceptics I don't
support their action.
It's aimed at taking away an innocuous placebo, thereby removing an
equally innocuous (if false) source of hope. There really are more
rewarding causes to pursue, like e.g. the low standards of hygiene in
UK hospitals and the wide spread of obesity.
And last but not least, it deprives Boots of valuable turnover.
So why do this?

*Placebo's Work ...

Sat Jan 30 13:50:14 GMT 2010 by Liza

"It's aimed at taking away an innocuous placebo, thereby removing an
equally innocuous (if false) source of hope."
Yes, but if placebo can sometimes really cure us and not just make us
"feel" better, the source of hope is not really false, is it? Proving
to the whole world that homeopathy is a sham may deprive lots of people
of a chance to get better without any side effects. Anyway, people will
keep on believing in homeopathy, no matter how many studies to disprove
it are published. What is needed is regulation, to make sure that
people with a serious condition that cannot be addressed by placebos
get sent to the hospital.

*The Whole 'debate'

Sat Jan 30 17:01:21 GMT 2010 by sceptic as well

What becomes clear in these postings is that the anti-homeopathy group
are so quick to stoop to scorn and ridicule. This is not a truly
scientific attitude.
And some of them seem to totally ignorant of the tens of thousands
killed and harmed by the the practice of so called 'evidence based'
medicine.
Official figures for USA ~120,000 DIE per year , and many more
seriously damaged.
Official figures for UK are hard to come by as they get hidden but I
recall they were announced on TV by an governement health spokesman a
few years ago as ~25,000 "seriously harmed" in a 6month period.
Are they also not aware of the serious harm done by many medicines -
its not just Thalidomide. I remember many others that did serious harm
Vioxx, Opren, Valium, Librium, Prosac and I've got a bad memory.
In SOME cases a convincing placebo may cost you a few quid but its a
lot safer

*The Whole 'debate'

Sat Jan 30 18:35:09 GMT 2010 by E

That is a very biased view of medicine. It's easy to quote that X
number of people were harmed, but did you also look up how many of
these were critically ill?
What about the Y number of people saved? Unlike homeopathy, medicine
CAN produce those numbers. Just go look up the number of pneumonia and
heart disease patients saved.
As far as the medications you listed:
Thalidomide--publicized only because of the birth defects it can
cause. It is still used as an effective cancer/rheumatologic agent.
Vioxx--Merck failed to disclose the increased risk of heart disease
associated with it. That was INCOMPLETE evidence.
Valium, Librium--Effective treatments for preventing severe alcohol
withdrawal, far more good than harm when not abused.
Prozac--Still a common and effective antidepressant. Of course,
evidence in psych measures are harder to standardize than infections
and heart disease.

*The Whole 'debate'

Sat Jan 30 18:46:01 GMT 2010 by phayes

"This is not a truly scientific attitude."
Oh yes it is. Scorn and ridicule are perfectly appropriate responses to
homeopathy--the "giggle response", as Steven Weinberg puts it.
What is (grossly) inappropriate is spurious comparison of fantasy
non-medicine with real medicine and its balance of benefits and harms:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=136

*The Whole 'debate'

Sat Jan 30 18:09:15 GMT 2010 by sceptic as well

Typed the UK figure wrong--it was 35,000 "seriously harmed" in 6
months

*God As Placebo

Sat Jan 30 18:10:03 GMT 2010 by chrisstevens

I guess God is a placebo, but He works for some people.

*God As Placebo

Sat Jan 30 18:21:25 GMT 2010 by sceptic as well

No God is very unsafe. Have you not read the bible? And as for the wars
waged in HIs name ....

*Homeopathy Placebo Effect?

Sat Jan 30 22:21:21 GMT 2010 by Loretta

I had a bunny who went 24 hours without eating. That is critical for a
rabbit and can be fatal. I took him to my veterinarian, who practices
standard medicine as will as acupuncture and homeopathy. He tried to
feed the bunny some hay but he wouldn't touch it. He then gave my bunny
a homeopathic remedy. 15 minutes later the bunny was eating the hay and
looking for more. I'd like to know how a rabbit could be affected by
the placebo effect.

*Homeopathy Placebo Effect?

Sun Jan 31 00:47:01 GMT 2010 by phayes

It wasn't the bunny. :)

*Is This Wise?

Sun Jan 31 00:10:41 GMT 2010 by Gary Allan
http://none

I agree that homeopathy is senseless drivel--if homeopathy were valid,
modern chemistry would be completely invalid. But the pills that will
be ingested ... can anyone be sure they are properly manufactured?;
does the filler have any effect if taken in large quantities?
No true believer is going to have his or her mind changed by this act,
if logic cannot do it. If one cannot or will not understand science
this demonstration will not do it--and if by some chance the pills are
dangerous for some reason (the filler, bad manufacturing) the result
will only further convince the true believers of the power of
homeopathy

*Polo Mints

Sun Jan 31 00:14:55 GMT 2010 by BB

Nestle should do a double blind study comparing the efficacy of Polo
Mints and homeopathic remedies. The results will doubtless increase
sales. They should get on with it before Tic Tacs come up with the same
idea.