From austriaaugust at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 00:16:45 2007 From: austriaaugust at yahoo.com (A B) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:16:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <687228.71803.qm@web37409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I apologize for disturbing the peace by resurrecting a long-buried post, but I thought it was worth a comment, and I've been away from the Internet for a while. Some time ago Jef Albright wrote: "Seeking pleasure is ammoral , but tends to correlate with activity that we would assess as "good"." I would go so far as to say that achieving pleasure for oneself is, per se, beyond just being ammoral. I would argue that achieving pleasure for oneself is positively moral. It is only incidental that the entity that appears to sense and enjoy the pleasure is the one who is commonly considered to be "oneself". IOW, pleasing oneself is a special case of a more general condition (what Jef might consider "greater scope") of the whole of sentient beings experiencing pleasure. That's not to say that all sentients have a desire to please any sentient apart from themselves - as many examples will testify. However, I think that most humans would want other sentients to experience pleasure, all else being equal. IMHO, pleasing oneself only becomes arguably immoral (or ammoral) when the cost of the self-pleasure is a loss of pleasure in other sentients or a gain in suffering of other sentients. Best Wishes, Jeffrey Herrlich --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070131/3ef1a096/attachment.html From sentience at pobox.com Thu Feb 1 00:25:31 2007 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:25:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] transhumanism=doomsday cult b.s? In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0701311418j75fbda8ctf85bcf7ff68e08a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <3642969c0701302345he9d716i56696ea78cb980da@mail.gmail.com> <8d71341e0701311418j75fbda8ctf85bcf7ff68e08a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C1337B.8030409@pobox.com> Russell Wallace wrote: > It's difficult to reliably distinguish in advance between visionary > ideas and wishful thinking, but I will suggest as a general guideline > looking at the following categories of claims: > > X is *possible* vs X is *easy*. > X *could* happen vs X *will* happen. > X can be achieved *someday* vs X can be achieved *within a specific time*. > > In each case claims of the former type have very often proved true, > whereas claims of the latter type usually have not, so we should be > receptive to the former but much more skeptical of the latter. "Me too." -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Feb 1 00:40:59 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:40:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself In-Reply-To: <687228.71803.qm@web37409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <687228.71803.qm@web37409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting subject line for this thread. I hope it isn't self-referential? AB wrote: > Some time ago Jef Albright wrote: >> "Seeking pleasure is ammoral , but tends to correlate with activity that we would assess as "good"." >? > I would go so far as to say that achieving pleasure > for oneself is, per se,?beyond just being ammoral. > I would argue that achieving pleasure for oneself > is positively moral. It is only incidental that the > entity that appears to sense and enjoy?the pleasure > is the one who is commonly considered to be "oneself". > IOW, pleasing?oneself is a special case of a more general >?condition (what Jef might consider?"greater scope")?of > the whole of sentient beings experiencing pleasure. > That's not to say that all sentients have a desire > to please any sentient apart from themselves - as > many examples will testify. However, I think that > most humans would?want other sentients to experience > pleasure, all else being equal.?IMHO, pleasing oneself > only becomes arguably immoral (or ammoral) when the > cost of the self-pleasure is a loss of pleasure in > other sentients or a gain in suffering of other sentients. So I understand that you believe pleasure is the ultimate measure of morality. I understand you are claiming that morality is measured with respect to pleasure integrated over all sentient beings, right? Do you also integrate over all time? So that which provides the greatest pleasure for the greatest number for the greatest time is the most moral? I assume you acknowledge the necessity of some short term sacrifice of pleasure in order to achieve the greater pleasure. How do you see that working in principle? Based on your reasoning, if 50 percent of the population are feeling less than average pleasure, would it be a moral good to eliminate them from the population in order to raise the overall level of pleasure? - Jef From kevin.osborne at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 00:43:22 2007 From: kevin.osborne at gmail.com (kevin.osborne) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 10:43:22 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] transhumanism=doomsday cult b.s? In-Reply-To: <3642969c0701302345he9d716i56696ea78cb980da@mail.gmail.com> References: <3642969c0701302345he9d716i56696ea78cb980da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3642969c0701311643t6246ec9eq56951950da769dad@mail.gmail.com> healthy, lucid, self-examinatory answers all; well done and congratulations, I think as a collective you guys have definitely passed the cult test with flying colours. what I was looking for wasn't necessarily direct responses to any of my egregious excoriations; what I was looking for was whether criticism could be parsed without rancor and whether unfettered self-examination came naturally; in both cases the responses were wonderful, served with a clarity, insight and self-effacement not often seen in our mighty tubular interwebs. *applauds* From neptune at superlink.net Thu Feb 1 00:56:02 2007 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:56:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sea boom References: <65464.86.130.30.87.1170253431.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <003c01c7459b$bf3334c0$b5893cd1@pavilion> On Wednesday, January 31, 2007 9:23 AM Anders Sandberg asa at nada.kth.se wrote: > "The Sea Launch Zenit-3SL vehicle, carrying the NSS-8 satellite, > experienced an anomaly today during launch operations." as stated on > http://www.boeing.com/special/sea-launch/ > > The anomaly was of the explosive kind, unfortunately: > http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_id=eMG2SBwIcrM&eurl=http%3A//www.e24.se/dynamiskt/klacksparkar/did_14533588.asp&iurl=http%3A//sjl-static3.sjl.youtube.com/vi/eMG2SBwIcrM/2.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskLcQYWlDCcNpLn1Q6HKkWpu > > Perhaps not a major setback, but sad. However, the explosion is neat. Yes, sad and neat to see. In a way, it's good it happened now and not, say, several years ago. They've already got quite a few successful launches under their belt, so it's a proven model. However, whether they'll continue is another matter. I'm not sure how damaged the launch platform is and that might be the deciding factor. (Of course, it all depends on how much profit they can make off launches. This might drive up their [self?] insurance costs considerably.) Regards, Dan From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Thu Feb 1 01:39:18 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:39:18 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself Message-ID: <380-220072411391841@M2W020.mail2web.com> Hummm... -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web From neptune at superlink.net Thu Feb 1 02:26:44 2007 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:26:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself References: <380-220072411391841@M2W020.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <000d01c745a8$6b166300$f4893cd1@pavilion> Not offering this as my opinion on the subject, but here it is to provoke comment: "A 60's-era interview with Paul Krassner in _The Realist_ comes to mind. Now, I love Paul Krassner and _The Realist_, and I understand that Mailer was trying to live up to his reputation as a professional asshole in this interview. The subject turned to masturbation, and Mailer declared that masturbation was misunderstood to be healthy when it is in fact traumatic and damaging to men, because it is an essentially isolating act. He then counseled men to do anything necessary, even if they had to commit rape, in order to avoid having to masturbate." >From http://www.litkicks.com/BeatPages/msg.jsp?what=MailerLeak Regards, Dan From asa at nada.kth.se Thu Feb 1 02:49:16 2007 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:49:16 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] transhumanism=doomsday cult b.s? In-Reply-To: <3642969c0701311643t6246ec9eq56951950da769dad@mail.gmail.com> References: <3642969c0701302345he9d716i56696ea78cb980da@mail.gmail.com> <3642969c0701311643t6246ec9eq56951950da769dad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57737.86.130.30.87.1170298156.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> kevin.osborne wrote: > healthy, lucid, self-examinatory answers all; well done and > congratulations, I think as a collective you guys have definitely > passed the cult test with flying colours. "I passed the cult test but all I got was this T-shirt!" :-) I think transhumanism is a bit unusual in its tendency towards self-examination. But of course, that can be negatively formulated as self-absorption and narcissism too. Sometimes I think we started thinking we were going into the history books a few decades too early. -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From amara at amara.com Thu Feb 1 07:30:23 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:30:23 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sabine's inspiration(s) Message-ID: Hi folks, this story by Sabine of what inspires her, and her perspective of theoretical physics and building our future is really nice. She's a very clear writer with a wonderful enthusiasm. Highly recommended! http://asymptotia.com/2007/01/31/sabine-hossenfelder-my-inspiration/ Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From ben at goertzel.org Thu Feb 1 07:43:18 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 02:43:18 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ben's 119'th dream In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BA18198-85BA-4277-8579-DC4BF9C674FE@goertzel.org> In a totally different vein, I took a couple hours and wrote down a recurring dream I've had for years, which is a sort of metaphor for transhumanism and the quest to create AGI... http://goertzel.org/Colors.pdf [warning: no scientific content, just some peculiar literature with a metaphoric transhumanist theme...] Not as funny as my post-apocalyptic scenario from a few years back, The McBuddha Awakens: http://www.goertzel.org/fiction/McBuddhaAwakens.htm -- Ben G On Feb 1, 2007, at 2:30 AM, Amara Graps wrote: > > Hi folks, this story by Sabine of what inspires her, and her > perspective > of theoretical physics and building our future is really nice. She's > a very clear writer with a wonderful enthusiasm. Highly recommended! > > http://asymptotia.com/2007/01/31/sabine-hossenfelder-my-inspiration/ > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, > ITALIA > Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), > Tucson > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Thu Feb 1 09:29:45 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 10:29:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] transhumanism=doomsday cult b.s? In-Reply-To: <57737.86.130.30.87.1170298156.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <3642969c0701302345he9d716i56696ea78cb980da@mail.gmail.com> <3642969c0701311643t6246ec9eq56951950da769dad@mail.gmail.com> <57737.86.130.30.87.1170298156.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <20070201092945.GO21677@leitl.org> On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 03:49:16AM +0100, Anders Sandberg wrote: > self-absorption and narcissism too. Sometimes I think we started thinking > we were going into the history books a few decades too early. I don't expect most people here are that hubristic/foolish. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070201/8ce36afc/attachment.bin From jonkc at att.net Thu Feb 1 17:07:59 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:07:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070123163620.02269730@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20070126162355.022cd960@satx.rr.com><5.1.0.14.0.20070128234250.03a64c70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><003601c743ed$d9f32810$da064e0c@MyComputer><0D622747-2CE8-449E-B50C-B32610822AB7@goertzel.org><005701c743f3$dfc82be0$da064e0c@MyComputer><008501c743f8$58045da0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2><7.0.1.0.2.20070129171355.023cade0@satx.rr.com><003601c7444c$61ee02e0$5c0a4e0c@MyComputer><002701c74492$05be4ca0$df064e0c@MyComputer><9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org><45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com><001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com><001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer><001d01c74560$2abee900$dd084e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <002d01c74623$8d616b00$a2054e0c@MyComputer> "Ben Goertzel" > Replications have occurred in many university That's why their results have appeared in well respected scientific journals; oh wait, that hasn't happened. > and industry labs And that's why billions of dollars from venture capitalist have flooded in into this potential gold mine to fund cold fusion start up companies; oh wait, that hasn't happened either. > Read the literature I would love to, but a website is not "the literature", UFO Abduction Quarterly is not "the literature". Show me an article in Nature or Science reporting positive cold fusion results and you have won the argument. Just one article, that's all you have to do. John K Clark From ben at goertzel.org Thu Feb 1 17:18:00 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Benjamin Goertzel) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:18:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <002d01c74623$8d616b00$a2054e0c@MyComputer> References: <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org> <45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com> <001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com> <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <001d01c74560$2abee900$dd084e0c@MyComputer> <002d01c74623$8d616b00$a2054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com> > I would love to, but a website is not "the literature", UFO Abduction > Quarterly is not "the literature". Show me an article in Nature or Science > reporting positive cold fusion results and you have won the argument. Just > one article, that's all you have to do. I am suggesting you to read a particular book, EXCESS HEAT, which surveys a lot of the scientific journal literature on CF, and also explains the political and social dynamics which led to Nature and Science not wishing to publish papers on CF. -- Ben G From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Feb 1 17:25:48 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:25:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] pointer to another EP/fMRI article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070201122443.03afeea0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> http://thetartan.org/2007/1/29/pillbox/shopping From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Feb 1 17:37:54 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:37:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ben's 119'th dream In-Reply-To: <0BA18198-85BA-4277-8579-DC4BF9C674FE@goertzel.org> References: <0BA18198-85BA-4277-8579-DC4BF9C674FE@goertzel.org> Message-ID: Ben wrote: > In a totally different vein, I took a couple hours and wrote down a > recurring dream I've had for years, which is a sort of metaphor for > transhumanism and the quest to create AGI... > > http://goertzel.org/Colors.pdf > > [warning: no scientific content, just some peculiar literature with > a > metaphoric transhumanist theme...] > Thanks Ben for sharing this. It's nice to know you see them/us too. - Jef From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Feb 1 17:59:33 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:59:33 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Performance Limitations on Engineered Biological Systems Message-ID: An interesting, apparently recent, essay by John Smart. http://www.accelerationwatch.com/biotech.html - Jef From jonkc at att.net Thu Feb 1 18:29:31 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:29:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org><45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com><001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com><001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer><001d01c74560$2abee900$dd084e0c@MyComputer><002d01c74623$8d616b00$a2054e0c@MyComputer> <3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> "Benjamin Goertzel" > I am suggesting you to read a particular book, EXCESS HEAT, which > surveys a lot of the scientific journal literature on CF, and also > explains the political and social dynamics which led to Nature and > Science not wishing to publish papers on CF. So let's review, some bozo I've never heard of called Charles G Beaudette wrote a book called "Excess Heat", which I've also never heard of. You say the book makes the claim that the editors of Nature and Science and ALL the top physics journals have been full of shit for the last 17 years; and then you recommend that I read this book. Benjamin, you really don't make a very compelling case that I should run out right now and buy that book. It seems a tad more likely to me that Mr. Beaudette is full of shit rather than all the most respected scientific journals on the planet are. John K Clark From ben at goertzel.org Thu Feb 1 19:26:26 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:26:26 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> References: <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org><45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com><001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com><001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer><001d01c74560$2abee900$dd084e0c@MyComputer><002d01c74623$8d616b00$a2054e0c@MyComputer> <3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com> <006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: Beaudette's book gives an excellent guide to the scientific literature on the topic. For one thing, it can be read as an annotated bibliography of the published literature on the topic, which is spread across a bunch of different scientific journals. Starting by reading the papers recommended in his book is better than reading random papers on cold fusion found via Googling, for example. Anyway, if you won't even take the time to read the available information on the topic, there's not much point in arguing with you on the topic. You are ignorant on this topic. I am less so. You are arguing that I have not convinced you to become informed on the topic. Apparently not. Fortunately, I have more interesting things to do with my time than try to convince you to become less ignorant on this topic '-) I welcome arguments on the reality of cold fusion with anyone who is familiar with the relevant scientific literature. ben g On Feb 1, 2007, at 1:29 PM, John K Clark wrote: > "Benjamin Goertzel" > >> I am suggesting you to read a particular book, EXCESS HEAT, which >> surveys a lot of the scientific journal literature on CF, and also >> explains the political and social dynamics which led to Nature and >> Science not wishing to publish papers on CF. > > So let's review, some bozo I've never heard of called Charles G > Beaudette > wrote a book called "Excess Heat", which I've also never heard of. > You say > the book makes the claim that the editors of Nature and Science and > ALL the > top physics journals have been full of shit for the last 17 years; > and then > you recommend that I read this book. Benjamin, you really don't > make a very > compelling case that I should run out right now and buy that book. > It seems > a tad more likely to me that Mr. Beaudette is full of shit rather > than all > the most respected scientific journals on the planet are. > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Thu Feb 1 19:40:06 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 20:40:06 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: References: <3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com> <006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <20070201194006.GE21677@leitl.org> On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 02:26:26PM -0500, Ben Goertzel wrote: > I welcome arguments on the reality of cold fusion with anyone who is > familiar with the relevant scientific literature. You got me sufficiently interested to try the book (unfortunately, it's ridiculously expensive on amazon.de). I don't expect to learn anything about the reality of the phenomenon (I concur with John that it's >99% likely it's sloppy experimentation), but I expect to be entertained by the social aspect of it, aka the cold fusion craze (hey, I was a brief believer, myself). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070201/efd7f57d/attachment.bin From ben at goertzel.org Thu Feb 1 19:52:09 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:52:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <20070201194006.GE21677@leitl.org> References: <3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com> <006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> <20070201194006.GE21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <6267E8CD-C635-42A4-9F9A-AE283EC8B95A@goertzel.org> On Feb 1, 2007, at 2:40 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 02:26:26PM -0500, Ben Goertzel wrote: > >> I welcome arguments on the reality of cold fusion with anyone who is >> familiar with the relevant scientific literature. > > You got me sufficiently interested to try the book (unfortunately, > it's ridiculously expensive on amazon.de). I don't expect to learn > anything about the reality of the phenomenon (I concur with John > that it's >99% likely it's sloppy experimentation), My prediction is that if you read the book and follow up a little bit by poking into the literature, your certainty in this regard will decrease to significantly below 99%... Please let us know, anyway ;-) ben > but I expect > to be entertained by the social aspect of it, aka the cold fusion > craze (hey, I was a brief believer, myself). > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 19:33:55 2007 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (gts) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:33:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself In-Reply-To: <380-220072411391841@M2W020.mail2web.com> References: <380-220072411391841@M2W020.mail2web.com> Message-ID: I have in the past discussed and debated hedonism as a philosophy. I learned that the word means different things to different people. Some people do not make the distinction I make between the experience of 'sensual pleasure' and the more ephemeral experience of 'happiness', considering them more or less different manifestations of the same category of experience. To me there is a clear distinction. Coincidently I was thinking about this distinction just a few nights ago, before this thread started. Like most people I love and seek pleasure but I was asking myself why happiness nevertheless seems better than pleasure. It occurred to me that the answer has something to do with *memory*. I find it relatively easy to re-experience some sense of past happiness via recall, but have difficulty conjuring up similar re-experiences of past sensual pleasures. So, in this sense, happiness keeps on giving but sensual pleasure does not. These kinds of considerations have become more important to me as I've grown older. In my youth I didn't care much about the distinction between pleasure and happiness, but as I grow older I become steadily more cognizant of my mortality. What things of value will I still have in my possession in those final moments before I die? I will have some memories of happiness, and not much else. -gts From austriaaugust at yahoo.com Thu Feb 1 20:28:35 2007 From: austriaaugust at yahoo.com (A B) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:28:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <979346.71747.qm@web37405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Jef, To clear up any possible confusion, I did not intend this post or thread name to exclusively imply sexual self-satisfaction, but rather any activity that provides oneself with pleasure; from watching TV to decoding the Universe. Although in principle, I don't see anything morally wrong with sexual self-satisfaction. Perhaps I should have been more careful in choosing a subject title. Oh well, maybe it will generate more thread attention ;-) Anyway, moving on ... Jef writes: "So I understand that you believe pleasure is the ultimate measure of morality." *Subjective* pleasure {as well as capacity for subjective pleasure} (in it's myriad forms to include those which some people would consider distasteful) over the "largest scope" -meaning the highest number of sentient beings regardless of their station of existence, yes. Jef writes: "I understand you are claiming that morality is measured with respect to pleasure integrated over all sentient beings, right? Do you also integrate over all time? So that which provides the greatest pleasure for the greatest number for the greatest time is the most moral?" Fundamentally, yes. However, this does not necessarily imply that one must inexorably commit immoral acts against other sentients in order to achieve this goal. Jef writes: "I assume you acknowledge the necessity of some short term sacrifice of pleasure in order to achieve the greater pleasure. How do you see that working in principle?" Well, we are dealing in abstract ideals and not in the grit of reality. However, achieving the "greater pleasure" does not inevitably require imposing suffering, or a loss of pleasure, or a loss of capacity for pleasure on any *other* sentient beings. For example, if 99% of hard working Americans chose to donate $30.00 to the advancement of altruistic AGI, well... good things would probably happen. Now donating that $30.00 may necessitate that a donor remain at his crappy job that he hates, but he always retains the choice not to donate and not to work, if he so chooses. It's a willful sacrifice. Jef writes: "Based on your reasoning, if 50 percent of the population are feeling less than average pleasure, would it be a moral good to eliminate them from the population in order to raise the overall level of pleasure?" No, definitely not. A more moral action would be to lift the lower 50% out of their unhappiness. Perhaps I could make my original statement more applicable by saying: Pleasing oneself only becomes arguably immoral or ammoral when the cost of the self-pleasure is a loss of pleasure in other sentients, a gain in suffering of other sentients, or a loss of capacity for pleasure in other sentients. In this case, if you were to kill the lower 50% you'd be bringing their capacity for subjective pleasure down to zero, in addition to eliminating whatever low level of pleasure that they did manage to experience to begin with. Best Wishes, Jeffrey Herrlich Jef Allbright wrote: Interesting subject line for this thread. I hope it isn't self-referential? AB wrote: > Some time ago Jef Albright wrote: >> "Seeking pleasure is ammoral , but tends to correlate with activity that we would assess as "good"." > > I would go so far as to say that achieving pleasure > for oneself is, per se, beyond just being ammoral. > I would argue that achieving pleasure for oneself > is positively moral. It is only incidental that the > entity that appears to sense and enjoy the pleasure > is the one who is commonly considered to be "oneself". > IOW, pleasing oneself is a special case of a more general > condition (what Jef might consider "greater scope") of > the whole of sentient beings experiencing pleasure. > That's not to say that all sentients have a desire > to please any sentient apart from themselves - as > many examples will testify. However, I think that > most humans would want other sentients to experience > pleasure, all else being equal. IMHO, pleasing oneself > only becomes arguably immoral (or ammoral) when the > cost of the self-pleasure is a loss of pleasure in > other sentients or a gain in suffering of other sentients. So I understand that you believe pleasure is the ultimate measure of morality. I understand you are claiming that morality is measured with respect to pleasure integrated over all sentient beings, right? Do you also integrate over all time? So that which provides the greatest pleasure for the greatest number for the greatest time is the most moral? I assume you acknowledge the necessity of some short term sacrifice of pleasure in order to achieve the greater pleasure. How do you see that working in principle? Based on your reasoning, if 50 percent of the population are feeling less than average pleasure, would it be a moral good to eliminate them from the population in order to raise the overall level of pleasure? - Jef _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070201/5e130832/attachment.html From asa at nada.kth.se Thu Feb 1 22:44:10 2007 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 23:44:10 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself In-Reply-To: References: <380-220072411391841@M2W020.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <56782.86.130.30.87.1170369850.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Happiness also involves more parts of our being than just sensual pleasure. I think that the more aspects of ourselves we add to the positive experience, the more valuable it becomes. At the lowest level we have simple sensual pleasures, little more than stimuli that activate our experience of pleasures. As they become more complex more and more of our brains get involved in the enjoyment - a delicious meal involves both smell, taste and touch sensations but also the knowledge and emotions tied to the food (ah, the peas of the Po valley, they remind me of that trip to Milano...) and the likely complex setting of the meal. Even greater enjoyment can be created by participating in the experience as an actor and not just an observer: the dinner company talk over the meal, maybe I cook it. The highest forms of happiness occur when we are participating totally in something and using all our being to bring it about, be it cooking, climbing a mountain or solving a problem. At this level the pleasure sensation becomes less important than the happiness: it is actually not very pleasant to sit up all night hacking away at some great piece of code, but the happiness it brings is indeed supreme and lasting. Happiness tend to accompany doing things that makes us extend ourselves as beings. >From this perspective striving for happiness might be both a goal and a means. It is the transhuman thing to do. -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 1 23:17:22 2007 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:17:22 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] random links In-Reply-To: <003f01c74565$18558620$d7971f97@archimede> Message-ID: <200702012322.l11NMWOg012779@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Thanks for the links scerir! > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir > Subject: [extropy-chat] random links > > The air we (italians) breath > http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2007/01/23/the-air-we-breathe/ Ewww. Much of that might be Diesel particulates. I agree they should be illegal in cities. > The worst possible move > http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2007/01/28/the-worst-possible-move/ Cool, thanks, I will see if I can find one that breaks 50. It is unusual to have a chess position that is so open that there are 50 possible moves. Together with the stated constraints, this is a difficult puzzle indeed. > Prime numbers peep in. ... > http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0212084 But this link isn't about prime numbers, its Brukner paper: Information and fundamental elements of the structure of quantum theory Do post the one about primes if you can find it please. {8-] spike From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Feb 1 23:46:32 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:46:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasure as ultimate measure of morality [Was: Pleasing Oneself] In-Reply-To: <979346.71747.qm@web37405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <979346.71747.qm@web37405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jeffrey - Would you please send to this list in plain-text format? Otherwise, it takes some time to reformat and properly quote your text. - Jef A B wrote: > Some time ago Jef Albright wrote: >> "Seeking pleasure is ammoral , but tends to correlate with activity that we would assess as "good"." > > I would go so far as to say that achieving pleasure > for oneself is, per se, beyond just being ammoral. > I would argue that achieving pleasure for oneself > is positively moral. It is only incidental that the > entity that appears to sense and enjoy the pleasure > is the one who is commonly considered to be "oneself". > IOW, pleasing oneself is a special case of a more general > condition (what Jef might consider "greater scope") of > the whole of sentient beings experiencing pleasure. > That's not to say that all sentients have a desire > to please any sentient apart from themselves - as > many examples will testify. However, I think that > most humans would want other sentients to experience > pleasure, all else being equal. IMHO, pleasing oneself > only becomes arguably immoral (or ammoral) when the > cost of the self-pleasure is a loss of pleasure in > other sentients or a gain in suffering of other sentients. --------------------------------------------------------------- > To clear up any possible confusion, I did > not intend this post or thread name to >?exclusively imply?sexual self-satisfaction, > but rather any activity that?provides oneself > with pleasure; from?watching TV?to decoding > the Universe. Although in principle, I don't > see anything?morally wrong with sexual > self-satisfaction. Perhaps I should have been > more careful in choosing a subject title. Oh > well,?maybe it will?generate more?thread > attention ;-) ?Anyway, moving on ... ? > Jef writes: >> So I understand that you believe pleasure is the ultimate measure of morality. ? > *Subjective* pleasure {as well as capacity for > subjective pleasure} (in it's myriad forms to > include those which some people would consider > distasteful) over the "largest scope" -meaning? > the highest number of sentient beings regardless > of their station of existence, yes. What do you mean by "subjective" pleasure? Is there some kind of pleasure that is not subjective? I think pleasure/happiness/eudaimonia has many variations. Of course you realize that I think these sensations and assessments are only indirect indicators and not fundamental measures of "good". But I wonder if you think you understand that statement of mine that you felt strongly enough about to disagree with? So if I'm to understand why you think pleasure is the ultimate measure of morality, I need to understand what you think pleasure is. Of course, if in your thinking there are many kinds of pleasure, then we'll need to understand what they all have in common before we can say that there is something that is worthy of calling fundamental or ultimate. I don't need to do this because I consider "pleasure" in all its manifestations to be only indications from a subjective system reporting that things are going well (whether those outside the system would agree or not.) To me, pleasure is only the vector of the feedback loop, but says nothing directly about the goodness of the output of the system. Do you see pleasure as being measured on a unipolar, or bipolar axis? As you probably know, many people consider pleasure and pain to be polar opposites on the same scale; do you agree with this? Or do you see pleasure as ranging from about zero (little or no pleasure) to some high value corresponding with extreme ecstacy? And just to add another calibration point, you would consider ecstacy to a higher moral good than, for example, the calm satisfaction of completing a hard day's work, or the joy of mother seeing her newborn after hours of painful labor, or...you get the idea. This leads me to ask you where you moral theory leads you in the case of someone in extreme pain from a terminal disease. Would it be morally better for them to die in order to increase net pleasure in the world, or do you see them as contributing some small absolute amount of pleasure (despite their pain) which would be lost if they died? I'm glad to see we seem to be using "scope" in the same way. ? > Jef writes: >> I understand you are claiming that morality is >> measured with respect to pleasure integrated over >> all sentient beings, right? Do you also integrate >> over all time? So that which provides the greatest >> pleasure for the greatest number for the greatest >> time is the most moral? ? > Fundamentally, yes. However, this does not necessarily > imply that one must inexorably commit immoral acts > against other sentients in order to achieve this goal. I understand that you claim that pleasure is the ultimate measure of morality, but your statement above seems to say that you think that there may be other measures of morality (possibly higher) that might come into conflict with increasing pleasure. Doesn't your statement above seem to contradict your thesis? ? > Jef writes: >> I assume you acknowledge the necessity of some short >> term sacrifice of pleasure in order to achieve the >> greater pleasure. How do you see that working in >> principle? ? > Well, we are dealing in abstract ideals and not in the > grit of reality. However, achieving the "greater pleasure" > does not inevitably require imposing suffering, or a loss > of pleasure, or a?loss of capacity for pleasure?on any > *other* sentient beings. For example, if 99% of hard > working Americans chose to donate $30.00 to the advancement > of altruistic AGI, well... good things would probably happen.? ? > Now donating that $30.00 may necessitate that a donor remain > at his crappy job that he hates, but he always retains the > choice not to donate and not to work, if he so chooses. It's > a willful sacrifice. It almost seems as if you saying that the freedom to choose is a greater moral good than actual pleasure (which of course I would agree with). So if you believe that the level of the world's pleasure over extended time is the ultimate measure of morality, would you therefore consider it a moral improvement if all currently living humans would sacrifice their current standard of living and invest their time and resources soley to increase the pleasure of future generations? This form of leverage should certainly result in greater pleasure for greater numbers over greater time, but it would violate many of my moral values. If you feel somehow that extrapolating to the future in such a way is not valid, then how about this scenario: Would your belief in pleasure as the ultimate measure of morality compel us to to adopt a form of willing slavery, where some people (say selected by lottery) would enjoy the labors of people who would otherwise be unemployed and unproductive members of society, as long as the "slaves" are given a constant supply of pleasure-inducing drugs? It seems all parties could have more pleasure in such a system, although at loss of what I consider greater moral values. Yes, these examples are extreme, but it's at the edges where we find out it a concept really holds up to its promise. ? > Jef writes: >> Based on your reasoning, if 50 percent of the population >> are feeling less than average pleasure, would it be a moral >> good to eliminate them from the population in order to raise >> the overall level of pleasure? ? > No, definitely not. A more moral action would be to lift the > lower 50% out of their unhappiness. Perhaps I could make my > original statement more applicable by saying: > Pleasing oneself only becomes arguably immoral or ammoral?when > the cost of the self-pleasure is a loss of pleasure in other > sentients, a gain in suffering of other sentients, or a loss > of capacity for pleasure in other sentients. So, based on your statement above, would you reason that it would be a moral good to increase the population of sentients as much as possible, despite the unavoidable economic difficulties so that these poor people could exist like many other poor people in the world, each of them adding an additional increment of pleasure? If, as I'm guessing, you're not comfortable with decreasing *or* increasing the number of sentients purely in order to increase the level of pleasure, then wouldn't this seem to tell us that increasing pleasure is not truly your fundamental and ultimate measure of morality? ? > In this case, if you were to kill the lower 50% you'd be > bringing their capacity for subjective pleasure down to zero, > in addition to eliminating whatever low level of pleasure that > they did manage to experience to begin with. ? Jeffrey, I've tried to show you some of the obvious inconsistencies in a system of morality based on pleasure. You're in good company as many philosophers have held to the same idea. You can find many arguments pro and con if you search "utilitarian ethics", and it's ultimately incoherent in my opinion. I could give you a more coherent view of morality, but you haven't asked why I made the statement that statement that you find disagreeable. - Jef From jef at jefallbright.net Fri Feb 2 00:09:29 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:09:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself In-Reply-To: <56782.86.130.30.87.1170369850.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <380-220072411391841@M2W020.mail2web.com> <56782.86.130.30.87.1170369850.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: Anders wrote: > The highest forms of happiness occur when we are participating > totally in > something and using all our being to bring it about, be it cooking, > climbing a mountain or solving a problem. At this level the > pleasure > sensation becomes less important than the happiness: it is actually > not > very pleasant to sit up all night hacking away at some great piece > of > code, but the happiness it brings is indeed supreme and lasting. > Happiness > tend to accompany doing things that makes us extend ourselves as > beings. > > >From this perspective striving for happiness might be both a goal > and a > means. It is the transhuman thing to do. Anders, I agree with your point, similar to that expressed so well by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and called flow. I would, however, encourage people to avoid the traditional default concepts of goals and means, which, despite their comforting familiarity, carry an implicit assumption of a dualistic self. It's more coherent and conducive to longer-range thinking to view this flow experience as the natural and expected condition of a reflexive system that is fully expressing its values. Rather than the paradoxical collapsing of goals and means that you mentioned, dictated by classical thinking in this area (never mind what priveledged party is supposedly able to observe and assess these goals and means) we, and all other agents act in order to minimize the perceived difference between our values and the environment. Goals are only an epiphenomenon. - Jef From jef at jefallbright.net Fri Feb 2 00:28:58 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 16:28:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Outlook spell checking! Message-ID: Does anyone here know why Outlook 2007 would go through all the motions of checking and correcting spelling errors and then just go ahead and send the original uncorrected text? It's been happening to me for a while and it's embarrassing. Yeah, I know "Don't use Outlook." I'm working on that... - Jef From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Feb 2 02:01:43 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:01:43 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070201210037.03b72878@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 08:40 PM 2/1/2007 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 02:26:26PM -0500, Ben Goertzel wrote: > > > I welcome arguments on the reality of cold fusion with anyone who is > > familiar with the relevant scientific literature. > >You got me sufficiently interested to try the book (unfortunately, >it's ridiculously expensive on amazon.de). Try interlibrary loan if the local library does not have a copy. Keith Henson From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 02:22:57 2007 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:22:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Indifference (was Coin Flip Paradox) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9980.25050.qm@web60524.mail.yahoo.com> --- gts wrote: > Think about it (and you too, Jef)... > > On what logical grounds can proposition A imply or > entail proposition B? > > A: "No information is available about the true > probabilities of the two > possible outcomes X and Y." > > B: "Outcomes X and Y are therefore equiprobable." > > Does A imply B, logically? I think not! If you or > Jef can show me > otherwise then please do. Because an empty scale will balance too, Gordon. Let me try to explain it to you from a frequentist point of view. I will assume that you are a very detailed oriented person because if you weren't, I don't think we would be having this conversation. So let me get a few key assumptions out of the way: 1. P(X) is the unknown *true probability* of X. (The Bayesian in me shudders at this, but I will try to argue this one from a frequentist stand point.) 2. X and Y are mutually exclusive. i.e. P(X|Y)=P(Y|X)=0 3. If X doesn't happen, then Y will happen or put another way, Y is the "non-occurance" of X or Y = X'. i.e. P(Y)=P(X')=1-P(X) 4. There exists a set S of all possible events and their "non-occurances" that may or may not happen i.e. {E1, E2, E3 ... En} & {E1',E2',E3' ... En'}. This gigantic, possibly infinite, set would include very rare events like you winning the lotto or getting hit by lightning and very likely events like the sun rising tomorrow or you taking a breath in the next hour as well as everything in between like whether a traffic light will turn red before you get to an intersection or not. 5. Every element Ei of S has a characteristic *true probability* P(Ei) that governs how likely it is to occur as well as a converse probability P(Ei')=1-P(Ei) which governs how likely it is to NOT occur. 6. Event X and its converse Y are elements of the set S. Now that we have all our assumptions explicitly stated, let's get to the logic. Now let us say that we want to try to estimate the *true probability* of X but we have no data regarding what that probability might be. So let us assign the probability of X a random variable P(X). Now we have no idea what the shape of the distribution of P(X) might be but we do know that it is a real number that lies somewhere on the interval [0,1]. So now what a frequentist would do is start drawing pairs of elements as samples from the set S and measure their *true probabilities*. Lets say on the first draw you get E1 and E2 with P1 and P2 of .0001 and .75 respectively. Then on the next draw you get E3 and E1' with P3 and P1' of .985 and .9999. Then on the next you draw you get E2' and E3' with probability .25 and .015 repectively. Next you calculate the average of the probabilities that you get in each draw: Average of draw 1: (.0001+.75)/2=.37505 Average of draw 2: (.985+.9999)/2=.99245 Average of draw 3: (.25+.015)/2=.1325 Now you calculate the mean average you get with your draws: (.37505+.99245+.1325)/3= .5 Now admittedly I rigged this particular example to come out at exactly .5 but do you not see that if the set of everything that can happen or not includes every event and its converse then for every probability P(E) there exists P'(E')=1-P(E). So if you take enough samples of specific events and measure their average probability (relative frequency at infinity) you cannot help but get .5 as the average probability of SOMETHING happening at all. This is guaranteed by the Law of Large Numbers and the Central Limit Theorem just like Von Mises' results were. So if you don't have any information regarding what the *true probability* of a specific event is, then it only makes sense that you assign it the average probability of *all possible events* or .5 because you will be within one standard deviation of the *true probability* 2/3rds of the time. That concludes my sloppy logical proof of the Principle of Indifference using frequentist rationale. I like Jef, am tired of discussing the Priciple of Indifference with you. If this doesn't convince you, you will just have to go through life not believeing in the Principle of Indifference. :) Other topics in the category of probability/randomness however are fine. Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves." - Thomas Edison ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Fri Feb 2 01:28:10 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 20:28:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Immortal - unmortal, amortal, emortal Message-ID: <380-2200725212810225@M2W007.mail2web.com> I was looking over a couple of posts from times past (2002) and came accross this cut and paste at the Immortality website: ">>gts wrote: >>>Robert Bradbury has suggested in light of this thread that we should >>>coin a new term to replace "immortality." I think it's a grand idea. >>On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote: >>I think the word you may be looking for is 'amortal'. [snip] >Robert Bradbury writes: >I'll note that Damien has suggested in other messages 'emortal'. >In thinking about the evolution of possible vectors further it >seems to me one might also use 'unmortal' (in more the English >sense than the derived greek sense)." What was the outcome? I like emortal. Thoughts? Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 04:16:46 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 23:16:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Immortal - unmortal, amortal, emortal In-Reply-To: <380-2200725212810225@M2W007.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200725212810225@M2W007.mail2web.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote: > > > What was the outcome? I like emortal. Thoughts? I think its a question of taste. There was a similar discussion on the GRG list sometime in the last few months and there were many points of view raised (immortal, indefinite longevity, unlimited lifespan, ...). I don't think it will be resolved until someone with the "throw weight" to implant a term in many minds uses it in a number of public forums. (And uses the "term" in a sense that all can agree on.) You could probably compare this topic with the discussion that astronomers have about what to classify Pluto as (planet, minor planet, failed planet, KBO, ...). At least the astronomers know precisely *what* they are talking about. In the transhumanist ... human collective mindset range there is much less precision over exactly what we mean [1]. Robert 1. Taking as a simple examples the divisions over whether one wants ones body+mind, mind alone, contents of ones mind, ones DNA, ones DNA+ones mind, ones enhanced DNA+ones enhanced mind, ones recreated DNA, ones recreated mind, ... to survive for period X where X may range from hundreds to trillions of years. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070201/038ca1a1/attachment.html From sentience at pobox.com Fri Feb 2 04:31:42 2007 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:31:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Immortal - unmortal, amortal, emortal In-Reply-To: References: <380-2200725212810225@M2W007.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <45C2BEAE.2000908@pobox.com> We could just call ourselves the Q. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 04:39:40 2007 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 20:39:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Immortal - unmortal, amortal, emortal In-Reply-To: <380-2200725212810225@M2W007.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <83316.76280.qm@web60519.mail.yahoo.com> --- "nvitamore at austin.rr.com" wrote: > >Robert Bradbury writes: > >I'll note that Damien has suggested in other > messages 'emortal'. > > >In thinking about the evolution of possible vectors > further it > >seems to me one might also use 'unmortal' (in more > the English > >sense than the derived greek sense)." > > What was the outcome? I like emortal. Thoughts? Hey Natasha, I have a late entry: 'optimortal'. As in you die when you opt to. ;) Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves." - Thomas Edison ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From jonkc at att.net Fri Feb 2 05:08:52 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:08:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org><45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com><001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com><001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer><001d01c74560$2abee900$dd084e0c@MyComputer><002d01c74623$8d616b00$a2054e0c@MyComputer><3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com><006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> Ben Goertzel" > Beaudette's book gives an excellent guide Excellent? How did you determine the book was excellent ? What reason do you have for thinking even any of the facts it touts actually happened as advertised? I have no reason to think any of the experiments he describes were even were performed, much less done competently and honestly. The only thing I know about this Beaudette person is that he knows how to type. > to the scientific literature on the topic. There is no literature on this topic, there is only pulp fiction. > You are ignorant on this topic. I am less so. Having encyclopedic knowledge of Bullshit is no virtue. And I have my faults but I'll tell you one thing, I'm not astronomically gullible. > I have more interesting things to do with my time No you do not; not if you have the time to read junk science. John K Clark From jonkc at att.net Fri Feb 2 05:21:20 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:21:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com><006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> <20070201194006.GE21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <011001c74689$fd32d7a0$ed044e0c@MyComputer> Eugen* Leitl Wrote: > I concur with John that it's >99% likely it's sloppy experimentation I think you are being far too optimistic, or perhaps you were just being kind. Either Science and Nature are full of shit and have been for 17 years, and all the most cited Physics Journals are full of shit, and all the Nobel Prize Physicists (except Brian Josephson) are full of shit, OR, its Mr. Beaudette who has an excess of fecal material. I wouldn't give you a billion to one odds. Save your money Eugen. John K Clark From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 2 06:07:58 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 00:07:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <011001c74689$fd32d7a0$ed044e0c@MyComputer> References: <3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com> <006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> <20070201194006.GE21677@leitl.org> <011001c74689$fd32d7a0$ed044e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202000010.025fc550@satx.rr.com> At 12:21 AM 2/2/2007 -0500, John K Clark wrote: >Either Science and Nature are full of shit and have been for 17 years, >and all the most cited Physics Journals are full of shit, and all the Nobel >Prize Physicists (except Brian Josephson) are full of shit John, how do you square this absolute and apoplectic certainty concerning the wisdom of these gatekeepers with their attitude toward, say, potential drexlerian molecular manufacture (something you've defended with equal spirited vehemence for more than a decade even as Nobelists like Smalley jeered and denounced it), or the value of cryonics (has this topic been received enthusiastically by the arbiters of all true knowledge?), or the prospect of a technological Singularity? How full of shit do these journals and editors have to be to spurn ideas you apparently embrace as well-founded? Damien Broderick From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 06:52:55 2007 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:52:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Pleasing Oneself In-Reply-To: <979346.71747.qm@web37405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <197215.32923.qm@web60512.mail.yahoo.com> --- A B wrote: > To clear up any possible confusion, I did not > intend this post or thread name to exclusively imply > sexual self-satisfaction, but rather any activity > that provides oneself with pleasure; from watching > TV to decoding the Universe. Although in principle, > I don't see anything morally wrong with sexual > self-satisfaction. FWIW: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/291/13/1578 Relevant quote: "However, high ejaculation frequency was related to decreased risk of total prostate cancer." In my opinion, it would be morally wrong not to. ;) Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves." - Thomas Edison ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121 From scerir at libero.it Fri Feb 2 07:29:28 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:29:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] random links References: <200702012322.l11NMWOg012779@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <002301c7469b$e017cd80$64bf1f97@archimede> "spike": > > Prime numbers peep in. > > http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0212084 > But this link isn't about prime numbers, [...] Yes, Zelinger's paper is about information, quantum, and related philosophies. But the quote below comes from that paper. "How to define the total information content of more complex systems? In a n-dimensional Hilbert space, one needs n^2 -1 real parameters to specify a general density matrix rho, which must be hermitean and have Trace(rho) = 1. Since measurements within a particular basis set can yield only n - 1 independent probabilities (the sum of all probabilities for all possible outcomes in an individual experiment is one), one needs n + 1 distinct basis sets to provide the required total number of n^2 - 1 independent probabilities. Ivanovic (1981) showed that the required number n + 1 of unbiased basis sets indeed exists if n is a prime number." The existence of unbiased basis sets is interesting both for fundamental reasons (is a quantum mechanics without probability amplitudes possible?) and for the construction of quantum-information protocols (key distributions based on a large number of unbiased basis sets may have advantages over key distributions based on qubits). So prime numbers peep in both for fundamental reasons and for 'technological' reasons. (But at least the latter is difficult stuff for me). s. From ben at goertzel.org Fri Feb 2 13:41:45 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:41:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> References: <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org><45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com><001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com><001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer><001d01c74560$2abee900$dd084e0c@MyComputer><002d01c74623$8d616b00$a2054e0c@MyComputer><3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com><006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer> <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2007, at 12:08 AM, John K Clark wrote: > Ben Goertzel" > >> Beaudette's book gives an excellent guide > > Excellent? How did you determine the book was excellent ? It presented complex information clearly, and served as a good guide to the more technical research literature (published journal papers, and conference papers), which I also dug into a bit. For links into the literature, a starting-point is: http://www.lenr-canr.org/ http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html > What reason do you > have for thinking even any of the facts it touts actually happened as > advertised? I agree, it could be the case that dozens of researchers at various university labs over the last 17 years have falsified their CF experiments and corresponding journal and conference publications, through dishonesty or mass insanity. It could also be the case that the Moon landing was falsified, and humans never really went to the moon. I never saw the Moon landing myself in person, nor personally talked to anyone who did -- I just watched it on TV, and read about it. I could be a brain floating in a vat filled with LSD, cayenne pepper and cream cheese, hallucinating I'm sitting at a desk typing on a computer... etc. etc. If CF is wrong, I don't think mass dishonesty or insanity is the best explanation, actually. The published CF experiments that appear to confirm the production of excess heat, have been done using a wide variety of experimental setups and calorimetric apparatus. It is certainly possible that there are strange, systematic errors in this wide variety of calorimetric apparatus, which are not understood by any current practitioners of calorimetry. However, based on my review of the literature, this seems less likely to me than the actual reality of the CF phenomenon. I am not sure why you find it so bizarre to imagine that some kind of non-binary nuclear fusion (multiple nuclei fusing, rather than pairwise fusion) could exist, when the right materials are sufficiently compressed together in the right conditions and enough charge is passed through them. There is certainly nothing in basic physics that prohibits this, as our current understanding of nuclear physics is based on a lot of crude approximations. Perturbation theory is not exact, and so far as I know no one has done any extremely detailed computer simulations of the conditions that exist inside the cell during CF experiments. -- Ben From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 2 13:48:32 2007 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 05:48:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] nanomachine In-Reply-To: <002301c7469b$e017cd80$64bf1f97@archimede> Message-ID: <200702021349.l12DnDfU013931@andromeda.ziaspace.com> It isn't clear what this guy is talking about, but sounds interesting: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/02/01/nanomachine.reut/index.html spike From eugen at leitl.org Fri Feb 2 14:35:27 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:35:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 08:41:45AM -0500, Ben Goertzel wrote: > For links into the literature, a starting-point is: > > http://www.lenr-canr.org/ > http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html I'm reading through it (what's available as full text, that is), and it's appallingly bad science so far. Hopefully I'll find more time to explain why this rubs me the wrong way. Here's a 17 page excerpt from Beaudette, if one wants to see whether the book is worth buying: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BeaudetteCexcessheat.pdf -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070202/c3c99ab1/attachment.bin From scerir at libero.it Fri Feb 2 14:13:15 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:13:15 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] nanomachine References: <200702021349.l12DnDfU013931@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <000e01c746d4$4b195170$d1b81f97@archimede> > It isn't clear what this guy is talking about, but sounds interesting: > http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/02/01/nanomachine.reut/index.html > spike See also http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/11/1/26 http://www.chem.ed.ac.uk/staff/leigh.html but, wait, there is another virtual paramachine here! http://www.arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0701641 (I do not remember the name of the extrope who was interested in those Casimir machine) From amara at amara.com Fri Feb 2 15:02:39 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:02:39 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Penn and Teller on the Moon Hoax Message-ID: Penn and Teller on the Moon Hoax http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so2FmHB-R58&eurl= (hilarious!) Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 15:45:08 2007 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (gts) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:45:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Indifference (was Coin Flip Paradox) In-Reply-To: <9980.25050.qm@web60524.mail.yahoo.com> References: <9980.25050.qm@web60524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A couple of things, Stu: 1) We're getting ahead of ourselves here; you posted at least two or three messages in the last two or three days to which I have not yet fully responded. As a result I think you are operating under the false assumption, among other things, that I am here trying to defend frequentism against Bayesianism. I am not. However I was defending frequentism against what I perceived as your false criticisms, e.g., your strange idea that contrary to theory, frequencies "orbit chaotically". The frequency theory deserves a fair hearing. So does the propensity theory, for that matter, which we've still barely touched on. 2) As I mentioned yesterday in private email, I worry that people here are getting annoyed with these debates about probability theory, mainly because Eugen has rung the warning bell not just once but twice now. I don't agree with that style of list management. As far as I can tell we are not flaming each other or doing anything else inappropriate and so we should be free to continue without questions and interruptions by the list managers. However I suspect nobody really cares what I think about list management. It might be time to drop the subject or take it elsewhere. I'm disappointed about this, but again this isn't about me. A similar thread exists on Ben's AGI list, on which this subject is welcome in so much as it relates to programming AI, so perhaps that would be the place to take it. Are you a subscriber there? In the meantime I've got you on the CC. That being said, I appreciate your contributions and your post deserves an answer... > That concludes my sloppy logical proof of the > Principle of Indifference using frequentist rationale. Because of 2) above I am reluctant to go into detail here as to the reason any such argument must fail, except to remind you that the frequency theory is an objectivist, non-epistemic account of probability in which the epistemic principle of indifference is irrelevant and nonsensical. That is, under frequentism the principle it is not even untrue, much less true. A proper proof would be by formal logic, (an epistemic endeavor), which I maintain is impossible. You simply cannot prove that total ignorance about the true state of nature gives one any real justification for assigning equal (or unequal) probabilities to each of the possible states of nature. This is so because ignorance does not imply knowledge. So when we invoke the principle of indifference, we do so without any formal justification. > If this doesn't convince you, you will just have to go through life not > believeing > in the Principle of Indifference. :) In that case I would go through life in good company, including the company of subjective Bayesians who know better than to imagine logical truth where none exists. -gts From jonkc at att.net Fri Feb 2 17:51:05 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:51:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org><45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com><001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com><001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer><001d01c74560$2abee900$dd084e0c@MyComputer><002d01c74623$8d616b00$a2054e0c@MyComputer><3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com><006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer><001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <00fe01c746f2$e8c62c40$10084e0c@MyComputer> "Ben Goertzel" > It could also be the case that the Moon landing was falsified, and > humans never really went to the moon. I believe people went to the moon for the same reason I believe most of what I read in Science and Nature, people I know and respect vouch for it. I've never heard of any of these cold fusion people, and none in the scientific community that I admire seems to have heard of them either, much less respect them. As I said before I have no reason to thing Mr. Beaudette isn't just a man with a typewriter. John K Clark From jonkc at att.net Fri Feb 2 17:52:16 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:52:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <3cf171fe0702010918g44819bb2mccb012150b21ed5e@mail.gmail.com><006101c7462e$f5291a20$a2054e0c@MyComputer><20070201194006.GE21677@leitl.org><011001c74689$fd32d7a0$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202000010.025fc550@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <00ff01c746f2$e93b0e20$10084e0c@MyComputer> Damien Broderick" > John, how do you square this absolute and apoplectic certainty concerning > the wisdom of these gatekeepers with their attitude toward, say, potential > drexlerian molecular manufacture It's the difference between having a theory and claiming an experimental result. Drexler said, I do not believe my ideas contradict the known laws of Physics so I believe it will actually happen someday; if they had said the same about cold fusion I might not have agreed but I could at least have some respect for them. If Drexler had said "not only is Nanotechnology theoretically possible but I already invented it 17 years ago, and it's only because of an evil conspiracy among all the top sciences journal on the planet that prevents this Good News from being well known" then I would say Drexler is full of shit too. Fortunately Drexler said no such thing. > or the value of cryonics And if Cryonics advocates had said they have been freezing people and bringing them back to life for 17 years with no problem then they too would have fecal material up to their eyebrows. John K Clark From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Feb 2 17:39:13 2007 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:39:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <200702021756.l12HuwqI029539@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 08:41:45AM -0500, Ben Goertzel wrote: > > > For links into the literature, a starting-point is: > > > > http://www.lenr-canr.org/ > > http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html On the LENR-CANR site is the following comment: Appeal to readers: spread the word and help bring about a rebirth of interest in cold fusion. This includes responses from the present and previous editors of the Scientific American. Hmmmm. Another puzzler is a comment by A.C. Clarke: Free e-book Cold Fusion and The Future. The future might be better than you think. A. C. Clarke says this book calls for "a reliable Mind-Deboggler." What did he mean by that comment? It can be interpreted a number of ways. 1. Clarke read in the book: the cold fusion community needs "a reliable Mind-Deboggler." 2. Clarke read the book and now needs "a reliable Mind-Deboggler" because he is so amazed. 3. The writers have boggled minds to produce such a book. etc. The site doesn't do much to convince real scientists to study this field methinks. spike From scerir at libero.it Fri Feb 2 18:00:51 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:00:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] random links References: <200702012322.l11NMWOg012779@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <002301c7469b$e017cd80$64bf1f97@archimede> Message-ID: <000401c746f4$13eca970$66bf1f97@archimede> > So prime numbers peep in both for fundamental reasons > and for 'technological' reasons. (But at least the latter > is difficult stuff for me). > s. There is another connection between QT and prime numbers, that seems even more interesting. http://www.maths.bris.ac.uk/research/highlights/random-m/ s. " My approach to understanding the full implications of G?del's work is mathematically analogous to the ideas of thermodynamics and Boltzmann and statistical mechanics. You might say, not completely seriously, that what I'm proposing is 'thermodynamical epistemology' !" - G. Chaitin From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 2 18:46:48 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:46:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] random links In-Reply-To: <000401c746f4$13eca970$66bf1f97@archimede> References: <200702012322.l11NMWOg012779@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <002301c7469b$e017cd80$64bf1f97@archimede> <000401c746f4$13eca970$66bf1f97@archimede> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202124531.02297ad8@satx.rr.com> At 07:00 PM 2/2/2007 +0100, Serafino wrote: >There is another connection between QT and prime >numbers, that seems even more interesting. >http://www.maths.bris.ac.uk/research/highlights/random-m/ That's really amazing. Of course mathematics starts by abstracting from observed physics, so maybe it's not *so* surprising... Damien Broderick From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 20:28:00 2007 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (gts) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:28:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Indifference (was Coin Flip Paradox) In-Reply-To: References: <9980.25050.qm@web60524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This little blurb is so cogent that it must be mentioned here: "Evidently we require [in order to correctly invoke the supposed principle of indifference] not mere absence of knowledge of reasons favoring one alternative over another, but knowledge of the absence of such reasons." Some people confuse 'absence of knowledge of reasons' with 'knowledge of absence of reasons'. http://www.philosophyprofessor.com/philosophies/indifference-principle.php -gts From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 2 23:54:57 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:54:57 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> At 03:35 PM 2/2/2007 +0100, Eugen wrote: > > http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html > >I'm reading through it (what's available as full >text, that is), and it's appallingly bad science so far. Have you looked at papers by Peter Hagelstein yet? Damien Broderick From ben at goertzel.org Sat Feb 3 00:56:11 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:56:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: Eugen, Could you elaborate on what you feel is bad about some particular papers? The replications that Beaudette focuses on are the ones by the following researchers: * McKubre * Oriani * Miles * Arata so critiques of their work would be of the most interest to me. I appreciate very much critical comments about the actual science... -- Ben On Feb 2, 2007, at 6:54 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:35 PM 2/2/2007 +0100, Eugen wrote: > >>> http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html >> >> I'm reading through it (what's available as full >> text, that is), and it's appallingly bad science so far. > > Have you looked at papers by Peter Hagelstein yet? > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 02:58:03 2007 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (gts) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:58:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Indifference (was Coin Flip Paradox) In-Reply-To: <62c14240702021843i29522bccsa0e0980fc1c389d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <9980.25050.qm@web60524.mail.yahoo.com> <62c14240702021843i29522bccsa0e0980fc1c389d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:43:51 -0500, Mike Dougherty wrote: > Your sentence construction requires parsing of very long strings to > establish idea chunks. These chunks are not easily disambiguated from > the adjacent chunks, so the whole paragraph tends to blur into a less > comprehensible moire of ideas. Ugh! Sorry if my writing is so unclear, Mike. I'll try to work on that! > I'm curious, do you know of a less ambiguous language? Do you think > there would be less language-inherent confusion if you were to explain > these ideas using Lojban++ I don't know Lojban++ but I am certified in C++. I don't think I could discuss philosophy in C++ though. :) >> "Evidently we require [in order to correctly invoke the supposed >> principle of indifference] not mere absence of knowledge of reasons >> favoring one >> alternative over another, but knowledge of the absence of such reasons." >> >> Some people confuse 'absence of knowledge of reasons' with 'knowledge of >> absence of reasons'. The point that author was making is that the principle of indifference might be logically valid in circumstances in which there are *truly* no reasons to prefer or expect one outcome over another, but not in circumstances in which we only *think* there are no such reasons (as is almost always if not absolutely always the case in which people try to invoke it). Does that make sense? > Because of 2) above I am reluctant to go into detail here as to the > reason any such argument must fail, except to remind you that the > frequency > theory is an objectivist, non-epistemic account of probability in which > the epistemic principle of indifference is irrelevant and nonsensical. Simply stated, if the principle of indifference could be proved valid using frequentist arguments as Stu suggested, then frequentists would be objective bayesians instead of frequentists. :) Epistemic concepts such as the principle of indifference have no traction under frequentism, because frequentists eschew epistemic interpretations of probability in favor of their brand of objectivism. Frequentists believe probabilities exist 'out there' in objective reality as opposed to 'in here' in our subjective assessments. -gts From pj at pj-manney.com Sat Feb 3 06:50:23 2007 From: pj at pj-manney.com (pjmanney) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 01:50:23 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Wikilobbying" Message-ID: <14773075.870081170485421155.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> >From the font of funny, Mr. Stephen Colbert's take on what happens when democracy comes to information technology: http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/index.jhtml?ml_video=81454 PJ From scerir at libero.it Sat Feb 3 08:07:58 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:07:58 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] random links References: <200702012322.l11NMWOg012779@andromeda.ziaspace.com><002301c7469b$e017cd80$64bf1f97@archimede><000401c746f4$13eca970$66bf1f97@archimede> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202124531.02297ad8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003a01c7476a$6b23c400$06931f97@archimede> > >http://www.maths.bris.ac.uk/research/highlights/random-m/ > > That's really amazing. Of course mathematics starts by abstracting > from observed physics, so maybe it's not *so* surprising... > > Damien Broderick In quantum chaology, I suppose, the usual quantal principles of stability (via quantization; via bounded operators; via fractal behaviours of wavefunctions in space and in time; via revivals; etc.) and evolution (via essential randomness; via finiteness of available information; via contextuality; via nonlocality; etc.) must hold. I would not be surprised if, sometimes, principles of stability and evolution are at work in the kingdom of mathematics. Maybe the question is not only about the 'unreasonable' effectiveness of mathematics in natural sciences http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html but also the 'unreasonable' effectiveness of natural sciences in mathematics [1]. s. [1] "Nature is earlier than man, but man is earlier than natural science". -Von Weizsaecker From eugen at leitl.org Sat Feb 3 10:48:59 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:48:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 05:54:57PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > Have you looked at papers by Peter Hagelstein yet? Yes, but my beef is with the experiments. I'm not sure there's an anomaly to explain. What's needed is experimental proof of excess heat. http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinsummaryofi.pdf contains plenty of claims which are trivial to reproduce. Each one of these claims would be enough for a Nobel prize. This is pretty old stuff, why did they stop? You don't need a large budget, and you could do it in your cellar. So why did they stop? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/1a978b03/attachment.bin From ben at goertzel.org Sat Feb 3 11:44:02 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 06:44:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> <20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org> Eugen, The story that the researchers tell is as follows: 1) The experiments are simple but hard to get right, because when you run the cell for weeks on end, gunk tends to build up inside them so a lot of care needs to be taken 2) In most variants of the experiment, the phenomenon only occurs a certain % of the time. Arata's set-up seems to be an exception, but his set-up is not so easy to run in your garage. The variation appears to be related to the batch of palladium used, which suggests it has to do with impurities in the palladium. So, you have a phenomenon that requires extremely careful set-up, takes a long time to run, and succeeds only a certain percentage of the time. And then, once you've done it and gotten positive results, everyone laughs at you and calls you a MEGA-BULLSHITter anyway... Let's say that you, Eugen Leitl, took the time to replicate the results yourself. Let's say you put in a year of part-time effort on this project, learning the boring little ways of getting the deuterium to load really densely into the palladium, keeping your cell running cleanly and so forth. Then, at the end of the year, what would your result be? Well, it would be just another paper to add to the existing list of replications. How would one more replication, by you, change the situation any? The re-counting of McKubre's experiments in Beaudette's book are instructive, for example. -- Ben On Feb 3, 2007, at 5:48 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Feb 02, 2007 at 05:54:57PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > >> Have you looked at papers by Peter Hagelstein yet? > > Yes, but my beef is with the experiments. I'm not sure there's > an anomaly to explain. What's needed is experimental proof > of excess heat. > > http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinsummaryofi.pdf > contains plenty of claims which are trivial to reproduce. > Each one of these claims would be enough for a Nobel prize. > This is pretty old stuff, why did they stop? You don't > need a large budget, and you could do it in your cellar. > > So why did they stop? > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From george at betterhumans.com Sat Feb 3 13:17:23 2007 From: george at betterhumans.com (George Dvorsky) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 08:17:23 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: I just got this very disturbing email from Arel. Please do what you can to help. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Arel Lucas Date: Feb 3, 2007 1:47 AM Subject: Keith Taken into Custody To: arellu at gmail.com Writing to myself and bc'ing you all so as not to compromise anybody's address. Don't think I've written any of you yet. Amost too tired to type. Running as fast as I can since around 3 or 3:30 this afternoon when Keith was arrested in Prescott, AZ, supposedly on the bench warrant issued by the judge in 2001 in Riverside County. I can barely think. I gave a nurse his blood pressure meds but haven't heard anything except that the desk clerk told me he had been booked and was in a single cell this evening. So I hope he's safe. The death threats continued unabated, and his last safe house had been visited by police, so we were seeking lawyers and talking about where to go when. They stopped the car of the 2 I own that he usually drives (he's still bankrupt and owns nothing). I'm running on rage. I have nothing else to give me energy. With grief or fear I'd break down. So I choose rage. Damned thing they call a democracy here in this damned country, where he was arrested, convicted and sentenced for picketing. Damned law enforcement that lies, has no brains, will do $cientology's bidding. I may have made some connections that will help him refuse extradition and have his case in California reviewed here in Arizona. The police told me that he can't have a lawyer at the hearing Monday morning, and I can't be there. I was told by a couple of people that it's no good fighting extradition, but when it's a matter of going into a $cientology-controlled jail so they can fulfill their death threats, I'll fight what I can. The damned $cientologists have carried out *every other threat they've made* against him *and* me. So I believe the death threats. Why wouldn't I? I did an oral history with someone in Canada in which she tells me of their murder of a friend of hers. I've seen the look on their smug faces. I've been snarled at by Elliot Abelson, the garbage Mafia lawyer who ran the trial in Hemet. I can use all the advice and help I can get. I will follow him to Riverside as soon as I have any clue he's on his way there. I will make as big a stink as I can. I'm trying to reach press, have given out my phone numbers to anyone who wants details. Please get press involved. If my employers can't take the heat, they'll either fire me or make me resign. The hell with them. I'll have reached the 2nd tier of social security sometime in July. If I can hold out till then I'll get a little more of a pittance. So if you talk to me and I'm mad, well, yes I am. I hate this country that arrests people for picketing and lets the terrorist $cientologists run wild. If I can get him out of jail we'll leave it--for good, if possible. I've lost faith in pretty much everyone and everything--certainly democracy, justice, law enforcement--but that was a long time ago. I'm used to it now. But I'm still mad. Arel (928) 445-4412 (323) 712-5492 From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 15:24:37 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:24:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have made a call to the Prescott jail (928) 771-3286 and yes it appears that Keith is in custody. The case number appears to be 389486 and he is slated to appear before a judge on Monday Feb 5 regarding the Riverside (Scientology related) warrant. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/42ab11b1/attachment.html From amara at amara.com Sat Feb 3 15:45:28 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 16:45:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: I just wrote Boing Boing, giving them Arel's letter, with a link to his Wikipedia entry, in case they don't know who he is. I suggest that you Robert, also give Boing Boing he Prescott jail information. The more press, and the more information the better chances he has. I'm very worried about Keith's safety. Second thing to do: On another list, Perry suggested to make a blog, like a "Keith Blog" for people to post information. Maybe those of you bloggers can consider (quickly) being a clearinghouse for Keith information, and setting up a blog for him. I don't have experience with such a thing, and I'm pressed for time, getting ready for a trip. Any takers? Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From bkdelong at pobox.com Sat Feb 3 16:05:18 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:05:18 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, Boing Boing would be the best place to get the word out. Someone needs to update his Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson#Current_status On 2/3/07, Amara Graps wrote: > I just wrote Boing Boing, giving them Arel's letter, with a link > to his Wikipedia entry, in case they don't know who he is. I suggest > that you Robert, also give Boing Boing he Prescott jail information. > The more press, and the more information the better chances he has. > I'm very worried about Keith's safety. > > Second thing to do: On another list, Perry suggested to make a blog, > like a "Keith Blog" for people to post information. Maybe those of you > bloggers can consider (quickly) being a clearinghouse for Keith > information, and setting up a blog for him. I don't have experience > with such a thing, and I'm pressed for time, getting ready for a > trip. Any takers? > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA > Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) bkdelong at pobox.com +1.617.797.8471 http://www.wkdelong.org Son. http://www.ianetsec.com Work. http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 16:11:07 2007 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:11:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5366105b0702030811v1cc895f1s8b3a22871fb62a0d@mail.gmail.com> 09:50 Saturday, 3 February 2007 On 2/3/07, Amara Graps wrote: > I just wrote Boing Boing, giving them Arel's letter, with a link > to his Wikipedia entry, in case they don't know who he is. I suggest > that you Robert, also give Boing Boing he Prescott jail information. > The more press, and the more information the better chances he has. > I'm very worried about Keith's safety. > > Second thing to do: On another list, Perry suggested to make a blog, > like a "Keith Blog" for people to post information. Maybe those of you > bloggers can consider (quickly) being a clearinghouse for Keith > information, and setting up a blog for him. I don't have experience > with such a thing, and I'm pressed for time, getting ready for a > trip. Any takers? > http://www.operatingthetan.com/ hasn't had an update since 23 Sep 2005, and http://www.keithhenson.org/ hasn't had an update since 29 May 2001. Technorati doesn't show much change on "keith henson" yet. As of 09:54, nothing on boingboing either. There now exists a "Free Keith Henson" blog at http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/. I created this, but I'd like a volunteer to assume responsibility for it. My employer often has me on the road at short notice and sometimes away from network access. I will keep the blog until someone else volunteers. If anyone wants to join as a group author, please speak up. On the subject of wikipedia updates and blog posts, may I have permission to quote the previous emails of this thread? > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA > Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 16:39:25 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 16:39:25 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <5366105b0702030811v1cc895f1s8b3a22871fb62a0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5366105b0702030811v1cc895f1s8b3a22871fb62a0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Permission granted on my part. I'm not particularly "blog-literate" so feel free to cross-post where you feel it is useful. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/2676ea19/attachment.html From amaraa at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 16:51:55 2007 From: amaraa at gmail.com (Amara D. Angelica) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:51:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: <013801c747b3$9d31e780$640fa8c0@HPMEDIACENTER> > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Arel Lucas [mailto:arellu at gmail.com] > > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 11:35 AM > > To: amaraa at gmail.com > > Subject: Re: FW: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > > > > There is no bail. he was convicted in California and sentenced there. > > he fled California hoping for asylum in Canada in the face of death > > threats that he would die in prison (his initial sentencing hearing > > had to be postponed when it was found that his probation report, which > > was politically influenced in the words of the probation officer, was > > in the hands of the Mafia lawyer who had directed the deputy district > > attorneiy who prosecuted his case. He is a convicted misdemeanant. > > He will be extradited unless we can find a way to refuse or fight > > extradition successfully. When he was about to deported from Canada > > he fled to a series of safe houses. Since police had shown up at the > > last one, we were trying to get representation by attorneys and find > > out his options--if he has any, but no lawyer had even called him > > back, must less agreed to represent him. Unfortunately our story > > sounds crazy. Former $ciclos will, however, back us up. > > > > We need publicity more than anything. Light needs to be shed on his > > situation before he disappears into a jail situaiton in which he has > > been told he would be killed. We need to make sure he gets his meds, > > gets proper care and exercise. I need to be able to get him materials > > for his contact lenses and get him zinc, without which he gets > > bronchitis. (His bronchitis went untreated for most of the 5 days he > > was in custody in Canada while the $ciclos were trying to find some > > way to keep him in jail or have him deported there.) I cannot see > > him. i was told I can't go to his hearing monday morning, and neither > > can he be represented by a lawyer. > > > > This arrest was engineered for a weekend so that representation > > couldn't be had even if we could find someone to believe us, and while > > the only lawyer who might help him (who has himself been ruined and > > rendered homeless by $cientology) is with his family in New Zealand > > and not available by phone or any other way except email, which he > > might not be able to get, since he is using public libraries to pick > > it up. > > > > I repeat what was said once in Chicago a long time ago by a Yippie: > > "Where is this!? Is this Amerika!?" > > > > Arel > > 928-445-4412 > > cell (323) 712-5492 From amara at amara.com Sat Feb 3 16:54:15 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:54:15 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: Nothing yet on Boing Boing. Maybe they think I'm a kook. Or maybe my crappy FastWeb ISP caused my message to be tagged as SPAM. Or maybe the topic is too dangerous for them. Others here, feel free to write Boing Boing too. http://boingboing.net/suggest.html Perhaps use the Wikipedia entry, as a suggested link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson I think that it is the clearest for an introduction to him. Anyone here on Cryonet? They should know too. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From jef at jefallbright.net Sat Feb 3 17:10:31 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:10:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Post of the month [Was: random links] In-Reply-To: <003a01c7476a$6b23c400$06931f97@archimede> References: <200702012322.l11NMWOg012779@andromeda.ziaspace.com><002301c7469b$e017cd80$64bf1f97@archimede><000401c746f4$13eca970$66bf1f97@archimede><7.0.1.0.2.20070202124531.02297ad8@satx.rr.com> <003a01c7476a$6b23c400$06931f97@archimede> Message-ID: I would nominate scerir as poster of the month for his paragraph below, so full of import and such high geek. - Jef scerir wrote: > > >http://www.maths.bris.ac.uk/research/highlights/random-m/ > > > > That's really amazing. Of course mathematics starts by > abstracting > > from observed physics, so maybe it's not *so* surprising... > > > > Damien Broderick > > In quantum chaology, I suppose, the usual quantal > principles of stability (via quantization; > via bounded operators; via fractal behaviours > of wavefunctions in space and in time; via > revivals; etc.) and evolution (via essential randomness; > via finiteness of available information; via > contextuality; via nonlocality; etc.) must hold. > I would not be surprised if, sometimes, > principles of stability and evolution > are at work in the kingdom of mathematics. > Maybe the question is not only about the 'unreasonable' > effectiveness of mathematics in natural sciences > http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html > but also the 'unreasonable' effectiveness of > natural sciences in mathematics [1]. > s. > > [1] > "Nature is earlier than man, > but man is earlier > than natural science". > -Von Weizsaecker > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From bkdelong at pobox.com Sat Feb 3 17:17:57 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:17:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's 9am on a Sat morning in CA, where most of the staff live. And they're not exactally early-to-bed-ers ;) Give it a few. The word will spread. Send it to Declan Mc., Dan Farber's Interesting People list, Usenet and other places where Keith's plight has usually been discussed. Get the word out to enough of those people and others will begin picking up on it - that includes reporters, television, radio and podcasters who have ever talked about his fight against Scientology. We have to think like a viral marketer ;) The Net is your telephone tree. On 2/3/07, Amara Graps wrote: > Nothing yet on Boing Boing. Maybe they think I'm a kook. Or maybe my > crappy FastWeb ISP caused my message to be tagged as SPAM. Or maybe > the topic is too dangerous for them. > > Others here, feel free to write Boing Boing too. > http://boingboing.net/suggest.html Perhaps use the Wikipedia entry, > as a suggested link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson > I think that it is the clearest for an introduction to him. > > Anyone here on Cryonet? They should know too. > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA > Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) bkdelong at pobox.com +1.617.797.8471 http://www.wkdelong.org Son. http://www.ianetsec.com Work. http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 3 16:46:38 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:46:38 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 07:17 AM 2/3/2007, George Dvorsky wrote: >I just got this very disturbing email from Arel. Please do what you can to >help. Keith is a long, long time friend of many and this community and we must do what we can to help him and Arel. Natasha Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/2432fb05/attachment.html From george at betterhumans.com Sat Feb 3 17:37:00 2007 From: george at betterhumans.com (George Dvorsky) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:37:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: I just sent a personal plea to Cory Doctorow. Hopefully he'll be sympathetic. George From rhanson at gmu.edu Sat Feb 3 16:48:09 2007 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 11:48:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0JCW00JDRC09VC80@caduceus1.gmu.edu> I just mentioned Keith's troubles in passing at OvercomingBias.com Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Research Associate, Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University Associate Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From bkdelong at pobox.com Sat Feb 3 17:51:05 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:51:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: Natasha - do we have a good, one-paragraph summary detailing Keith's contributions to the Transhumanisim movement? Might give a bit more relevance to a posting on all our respective blogs & sites. On 2/3/07, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > At 07:17 AM 2/3/2007, George Dvorsky wrote: > > > I just got this very disturbing email from Arel. Please do what you can to > help. > Keith is a long, long time friend of many and this community and we must do > what we can to help him and Arel. > > Natasha > > Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary > Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, > Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the > circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system > perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > wta-talk mailing list > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > > > -- B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) bkdelong at pobox.com +1.617.797.8471 http://www.wkdelong.org Son. http://www.ianetsec.com Work. http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 3 17:15:39 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 11:15:39 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203111521.0424c500@pop-server.austin.rr.com> > >Anyone here on Cryonet? They should know too. I'll foward the message now. Natasha >Amara > >-- > >Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com >INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA >Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 17:57:41 2007 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:57:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0702030957h2af6bef7y85484985954e9b42@mail.gmail.com> 11:38 Saturday, 3 February 2007 I called the Prescott Detention Center at the number in Robert's post. The lady who answered told me they had a "Howard Henson" in custody, and that he would appear in court on Monday. More information should be available at MST 1600 Monday, 05 February 2007 from the detention center (jail) or from the court. When you call the jail: 1) Remember you deal with the police. 2) Speak politely. 3) Refer to the case number (389486) and ask for Keith by his full name, Howard Keith Henson. Things to learn: 1) Superior Court's docket, and contact information. I think this information is accurate. anyone care to test? Yavapai County Government: Clerk of Superior Court 120 S Cortez St Prescott, AZ 86303 (928) 771-3312 http://ww2.co.yavapai.az.us/departments/Sct/SctHome.asp 2) Contact information for Keith. 3) Can he receive phone calls or packages? 4) Can he receive vistors? Has he gotten his blood pressure medication? Does he need zinc, or contact lens cleaner, or something to read? (Yes, that last is serious. Jail sucks, for those of you lucky enough to remain ignorant.) Still looking for co-authors and eventually a maintainer for the Free Keith Henson blog. Discussion of the wikipedia article update happens on its Talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Keith_Henson Legal costs will mount soon. Shall we start a collection for it? Paypal account volunteers? Who else can we tell? Glenn Reynolds and Greg Burch come to mind, if they don't already know. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From jef at jefallbright.net Sat Feb 3 17:57:56 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:57:56 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith Henson Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those who have blogs can help by posting their own concise personal statements and including links to http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/ as well as http://www.operatingthetan.com/, http://www.keithhenson.org/, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson. Don't rely on reposting text from other blogs, as duplicate text is increasingly ignored by search engine algorithms. Doing so will rapidly influence visibility on Google and other search engines. Please choose wording carefully as the search engine excerpts will be read widely when the entire post may not. This is about visibility, reputation and integrity. - Jef > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:54 AM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > > Nothing yet on Boing Boing. Maybe they think I'm a kook. Or maybe > my > crappy FastWeb ISP caused my message to be tagged as SPAM. Or maybe > the topic is too dangerous for them. > > Others here, feel free to write Boing Boing too. > http://boingboing.net/suggest.html Perhaps use the Wikipedia > entry, > as a suggested link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson > I think that it is the clearest for an introduction to him. > > Anyone here on Cryonet? They should know too. > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, > ITALIA > Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), > Tucson > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From bkdelong at pobox.com Sat Feb 3 18:05:37 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:05:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <5366105b0702030957h2af6bef7y85484985954e9b42@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <5366105b0702030957h2af6bef7y85484985954e9b42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Just keep posting this info to the blog so we all are kept abreast and not just those on the lists. On 2/3/07, Jay Dugger wrote: > 11:38 Saturday, 3 February 2007 > > I called the Prescott Detention Center at the number in Robert's post. > The lady who answered told me they had a "Howard Henson" in custody, > and that he would appear in court on Monday. More information should > be available at MST 1600 Monday, 05 February 2007 from the detention > center (jail) or from the court. > > When you call the jail: > > 1) Remember you deal with the police. > 2) Speak politely. > 3) Refer to the case number (389486) and ask for Keith by his full > name, Howard Keith Henson. > > Things to learn: > > 1) Superior Court's docket, and contact information. > > I think this information is accurate. anyone care to test? > > Yavapai County Government: Clerk of Superior Court > 120 S Cortez St > Prescott, AZ 86303 > (928) 771-3312 > > http://ww2.co.yavapai.az.us/departments/Sct/SctHome.asp > > 2) Contact information for Keith. > 3) Can he receive phone calls or packages? > 4) Can he receive vistors? > > Has he gotten his blood pressure medication? Does he need zinc, or > contact lens cleaner, or something to read? (Yes, that last is > serious. Jail sucks, for those of you lucky enough to remain > ignorant.) > > Still looking for co-authors and eventually a maintainer for the Free > Keith Henson blog. Discussion of the wikipedia article update happens > on its Talk page. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Keith_Henson > > Legal costs will mount soon. Shall we start a collection for it? > Paypal account volunteers? > > Who else can we tell? Glenn Reynolds and Greg Burch come to mind, if > they don't already know. > > -- > Jay Dugger > http://jaydugger.suprglu.com > Sometimes the delete key serves best. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) bkdelong at pobox.com +1.617.797.8471 http://www.wkdelong.org Son. http://www.ianetsec.com Work. http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 18:07:17 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:07:17 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: I would propose a strategy. Since it was easy enough for me to get the number of the Prescott police dept. and the jail and the case number. Make this a *hot* topic in AZ before the hearing on Monday. I.e. Why is AZ executing a CA bench warrant? Who contacted police to let them know where Keith was? This should all be available under FOI requests (if people don't answer questions directly.) My interaction with the Jail indicated that did not have a clue as to whom they were holding. If the CoS fingers are in this and behind this, then it is clear that it should be brought into the light. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/93b0b2e4/attachment.html From jonkc at att.net Sat Feb 3 18:02:49 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:02:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> <35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org> Message-ID: <003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> "Ben Goertzel" > The experiments are simple but hard to get right One of the greatest understatements of all time! A simple well publicized experiment that was true but imposable to confirm for 17 years would be unprecedented in Science, at least for the last few centuries; I think you'd have to go back to Hero of Alexandria's steam engine or the Baghdad battery, and even then they weren't really well publicized. Ben, let me ask you a purely theoretical question, suppose two fairly well respected scientists had performed a simple experiment and claimed a revolutionary result, and suppose, just for the sake of argument they were wrong. What do you imagine the results would be 17 years later? I would think crackpots would still be repeating it in science fair experiments and they would still be claiming revolutionary results, and I would imagine real scientists would have forgotten about the entire sorry fiasco and moved on to more productive things. Does any of this sound familiar? John K Clark From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 18:14:03 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:14:03 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: > If the CoS fingers are in this and behind this, then it is clear that it should be brought into the light. To further expand upon this the phone numbers of the major TV stations in AZ should be posted. (We have < 48 hours in which to spin things.) Said TV stations should be informed as to whether KH's arrest is a CoS witch hunt. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/b569bb7a/attachment.html From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 18:32:19 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:32:19 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <5366105b0702030957h2af6bef7y85484985954e9b42@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <5366105b0702030957h2af6bef7y85484985954e9b42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/07, Jay Dugger wrote:When you call the jail: > > 1) Remember you deal with the police. > 2) Speak politely. > 3) Refer to the case number (389486) and ask for Keith by his full > name, Howard Keith Henson. Yes, all very valid points! (It was tricky getting Keith Henson -> Howard Keith Henson). Keith is in custody not due to the execution by the Yavapai County Police Department (and one should bear this in mind) (though one might want to investigate who arrested him and what their sources were) but due to an upstream fault of "justice" and the downstream consequences of that. The people you may be talking to are "tools" in the system and one should understand this. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/9f5ab388/attachment.html From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 3 18:39:53 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:39:53 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith Henson Legal Support Fund Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203123701.044dbe90@pop-server.austin.rr.com> We are providing Extropy Institute's website as a location to send donations in support of Keith. You can locate the donation page here: http://www.extropy.org or go directly here: http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm Many thanks, Natasha Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/0a3c094e/attachment.html From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 18:43:37 2007 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:43:37 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <5366105b0702030957h2af6bef7y85484985954e9b42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0702031043r553852b9q61b4357ecc681f5e@mail.gmail.com> 12:34 Saturday, 3 February 2007 I've just made the first post to "Free Keith Henson." Group author invitations have gone out. If you want one, just ask. We still need details of the arrest for local media. We had best have the honest and complete facts beforehand. Who knows how to write a press release? Like it or not, many people do not read BoingBoing, and the media need a "viable news product" before they devote attention and resources to it. I will be away for the next few hours. I just returned from eleven days out of the country, and have accumulated errands to run. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 3 18:06:39 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 12:06:39 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith Henson Taken into Custody References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203120620.044df5d8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/8be7a5b6/attachment.html From bkdelong at pobox.com Sat Feb 3 18:51:35 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:51:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <5366105b0702031043r553852b9q61b4357ecc681f5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <5366105b0702030957h2af6bef7y85484985954e9b42@mail.gmail.com> <5366105b0702031043r553852b9q61b4357ecc681f5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I can write a press release. However I'm about to head out for a few hours. Should be back around 5pm ET. Joint releases work best. So if the EI is officially supporting the Legal Fund then they should put out a release talking about the issue and centered around the legal fund with a boilerplate for both the EI and Keith Henson. BTW, we should identify a single person to be the media point-person for Keith. Arel should be the one to accept that person and while many of you, (I'm just a back-end person here), can speak on the issue, that single point person should play the "dispatcher" so to speak. Maybe we create a VOIP VM box with a phone number that acts as the press number and create a single email alias that forwards to a group of us would be good to pass around. Also, we can send email notifications of new VMs from the VOIP box to that address as well. It will certainly prevent a lot of confusion. On 2/3/07, Jay Dugger wrote: > 12:34 Saturday, 3 February 2007 > > I've just made the first post to "Free Keith Henson." Group author > invitations have gone out. If you want one, just ask. We still need > details of the arrest for local media. We had best have the honest and > complete facts beforehand. > > Who knows how to write a press release? Like it or not, many people do > not read BoingBoing, and the media need a "viable news product" before > they devote attention and resources to it. > > I will be away for the next few hours. I just returned from eleven > days out of the country, and have accumulated errands to run. > > -- > Jay Dugger > http://jaydugger.suprglu.com > Sometimes the delete key serves best. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) bkdelong at pobox.com +1.617.797.8471 http://www.wkdelong.org Son. http://www.ianetsec.com Work. http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 18:52:47 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:52:47 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Jay Dugger's blog related to K.H. situation Message-ID: Forward: On 2/3/07, Jay Dugger wrote: > To contribute to this blog, visit: > http://www2.blogger.com/i.g?inviteID=866265591557676048&blogID=1640021583814025998 > > Jay, I went there and it seemed to be co-opted by advertisers. Does one have a open-access forum for Keith's situation which does not involve possible diversions of interest. Note I would suggest some hosting a specific site and refusing to accept commercial sponsorship. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/1532d836/attachment.html From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 3 17:57:29 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 11:57:29 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <0JCW00JDRC09VC80@caduceus1.gmu.edu> References: <0JCW00JDRC09VC80@caduceus1.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203115708.030810c0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 10:48 AM 2/3/2007, Robin wrote: >I just mentioned Keith's troubles in passing at OvercomingBias.com Excellent Robin. Great. Natasha Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/28b78169/attachment.html From george at betterhumans.com Sat Feb 3 19:07:28 2007 From: george at betterhumans.com (George Dvorsky) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:07:28 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203115708.030810c0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <0JCW00JDRC09VC80@caduceus1.gmu.edu> <6.2.1.2.2.20070203115708.030810c0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: Feel free to use excerpts from my blog posts for the press release: http://sentientdevelopments.blogspot.com/2007/02/anti-scientology-activist-keith-henson.html From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 19:18:49 2007 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:18:49 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Jay Dugger's blog related to K.H. situation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5366105b0702031118t25039268gef0678e823f319c8@mail.gmail.com> 13:09 Saturday, 3 February 2007 R.B.: I don't see any ads on the site, even if I sign out of the Google Account. (Screen shot on request.) > Jay, I went there and it seemed to be co-opted by advertisers. Does one > have a open-access forum for Keith's situation which does not involve > possible diversions of interest. > That sounds like a better idea, I agree. I don't have the skill to quickly establish such. This blog can end when a better alternative exists. Speed seems to matter here. > Note I would suggest some hosting a specific site and refusing to accept > commercial sponsorship. Agreed on both counts. I still don't see any ads on blogspot though. From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 19:24:34 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 19:24:34 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <0JCW00JDRC09VC80@caduceus1.gmu.edu> <6.2.1.2.2.20070203115708.030810c0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: I would stress efforts to reveal why KH was located and arrested and imprisoned. *Who* informed people in AZ that Keith might be present. Who promoted the arrest. etc. Under standard FOI requests one can obtain such information. One's "overlord" is not free from revealing its sources. We should document such to give Keith a fair hearing. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/ee7f2a3c/attachment.html From kevin at kevinfreels.com Sat Feb 3 19:10:06 2007 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:10:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <001701c747c6$eb0e0610$640fa8c0@kevin> Would someone care to give an ENTIRE summary of the complaints, the contributions and what this is all about? I keep finding information but what I can't find is a summary describing Keith, who he is, what he has allegedly done, why someone has accused him of such things, etc. I would like to hear the story from the beginning. I have some resources at my disposal since I manage 32 different websites that could all be quickly given a link to the information, but I'm not doign anything until someone can give me the "story". ----- Original Message ----- From: "B.K. DeLong" To: "World Transhumanist Association Discussion List" Cc: "ExI chat list" Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > Natasha - do we have a good, one-paragraph summary detailing Keith's > contributions to the Transhumanisim movement? > > Might give a bit more relevance to a posting on all our respective > blogs & sites. > > On 2/3/07, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > > > At 07:17 AM 2/3/2007, George Dvorsky wrote: > > > > > > I just got this very disturbing email from Arel. Please do what you can to > > help. > > Keith is a long, long time friend of many and this community and we must do > > what we can to help him and Arel. > > > > Natasha > > > > Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary > > Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, > > Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture > > > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, > > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the > > circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system > > perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > wta-talk mailing list > > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > > > > > > > > > -- > B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) > bkdelong at pobox.com > +1.617.797.8471 > > http://www.wkdelong.org Son. > http://www.ianetsec.com Work. > http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. > http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. > http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. > > > PGP Fingerprint: > 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE > > FOAF: > http://foaf.brain-stream.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From jef at jefallbright.net Sat Feb 3 19:38:24 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:38:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <0JCW00JDRC09VC80@caduceus1.gmu.edu><6.2.1.2.2.20070203115708.030810c0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: My post is here: http://www.jefallbright.net http://www.jefallbright.net/keith_henson - Jef > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of George Dvorsky > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 11:07 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > > Feel free to use excerpts from my blog posts for the press release: > http://sentientdevelopments.blogspot.com/2007/02/anti-scientology- > activist-keith-henson.html > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From kevin at kevinfreels.com Sat Feb 3 19:16:56 2007 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:16:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: <001501c747c7$df922770$640fa8c0@kevin> Please disregard this email. I totally missed this. I was thinking about something else and didn't realize that this was THE Keith Henson. Bad duh moment. That goes to show you what happens when you have children. lol > Would someone care to give an ENTIRE summary of the complaints, the > contributions and what this is all about? I keep finding information but > what I can't find is a summary describing Keith, who he is, what he has > allegedly done, why someone has accused him of such things, etc. I would > like to hear the story from the beginning. I have some resources at my > disposal since I manage 32 different websites that could all be quickly > given a link to the information, but I'm not doign anything until someone > can give me the "story". > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "B.K. DeLong" > To: "World Transhumanist Association Discussion List" > > Cc: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 11:51 AM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into > Custody > > > > Natasha - do we have a good, one-paragraph summary detailing Keith's > > contributions to the Transhumanisim movement? > > > > Might give a bit more relevance to a posting on all our respective > > blogs & sites. > > > > On 2/3/07, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > > > > > At 07:17 AM 2/3/2007, George Dvorsky wrote: > > > > > > > > > I just got this very disturbing email from Arel. Please do what you can > to > > > help. > > > Keith is a long, long time friend of many and this community and we > must do > > > what we can to help him and Arel. > > > > > > Natasha > > > > > > Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, > Planetary > > > Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, > > > Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & > Culture > > > > > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the > circle, > > > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside > the > > > circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system > > > perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > wta-talk mailing list > > > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > > > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) > > bkdelong at pobox.com > > +1.617.797.8471 > > > > http://www.wkdelong.org Son. > > http://www.ianetsec.com Work. > > http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. > > http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. > > http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. > > > > > > PGP Fingerprint: > > 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE > > > > FOAF: > > http://foaf.brain-stream.org > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 20:05:32 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:05:32 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Nearby Help to you and Keith In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Robert Bradbury Date: Feb 3, 2007 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Nearby Help to you and Keith To: Amara Graps It goes without saying that there is a "spin" -- "Scientology witch hunt snares a transhumanist" (or something along those lines.) Scientology (and Tom Cruise) are active just below the radar of popular press. It does not take much to raise them to the "attention level". One could be calling up either Jay Leno or Craig Fergusun and offering comments. Both Jay and Craig have no difficulty taking on ''that which should not be". One has to however present it to the writers as such. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/54e3f8c5/attachment.html From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 20:14:43 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:14:43 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <001501c747c7$df922770$640fa8c0@kevin> References: <001501c747c7$df922770$640fa8c0@kevin> Message-ID: It has been discussed. The place to start is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson That is out-of-date and should be updated with respect to the current status. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/486c4f2a/attachment.html From bret at bonfireproductions.com Sat Feb 3 19:48:14 2007 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:48:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CC76E76-497A-40E0-9EA3-513DB305AA68@bonfireproductions.com> I'm sorta off-net right at the moment but if someone can get to digg.com and "digg" a link to something solid like this blog (not the wikipedia entry) then I am sure I can get people to "digg" the article to the top of the pile. This is probably his best bet - I'd digg it myself but the CGI won't submit on this mobile. On Feb 3, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Jef Allbright wrote: > Those who have blogs can help by posting their own concise personal > statements and including links to http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/ > as well as http://www.operatingthetan.com/, http:// > www.keithhenson.org/, > and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson. Don't rely on > reposting > text from other blogs, as duplicate text is increasingly ignored by > search engine algorithms. > > Doing so will rapidly influence visibility on Google and other search > engines. Please choose wording carefully as the search engine excerpts > will be read widely when the entire post may not. This is about > visibility, reputation and integrity. > > - Jef > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- >> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps >> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:54 AM >> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody >> >> Nothing yet on Boing Boing. Maybe they think I'm a kook. Or maybe >> my >> crappy FastWeb ISP caused my message to be tagged as SPAM. Or maybe >> the topic is too dangerous for them. >> >> Others here, feel free to write Boing Boing too. >> http://boingboing.net/suggest.html Perhaps use the Wikipedia >> entry, >> as a suggested link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson >> I think that it is the clearest for an introduction to him. >> >> Anyone here on Cryonet? They should know too. >> >> Amara >> >> -- >> >> Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com >> INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, >> ITALIA >> Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), >> Tucson >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Sat Feb 3 20:37:36 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 21:37:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <7CC76E76-497A-40E0-9EA3-513DB305AA68@bonfireproductions.com> References: <7CC76E76-497A-40E0-9EA3-513DB305AA68@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <20070203203736.GX21677@leitl.org> On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 02:48:14PM -0500, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > I'm sorta off-net right at the moment but if someone can get to > digg.com and "digg" a link to something solid like this blog (not the I've done it for reddit http://freeculture.reddit.com/info/12pou/comments what's the digg URL to mod up? > wikipedia entry) then I am sure I can get people to "digg" the > article to the top of the pile. > > This is probably his best bet - I'd digg it myself but the CGI won't > submit on this mobile. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/f90bedc8/attachment.bin From george at betterhumans.com Sat Feb 3 20:38:48 2007 From: george at betterhumans.com (George Dvorsky) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:38:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <20070203203736.GX21677@leitl.org> References: <7CC76E76-497A-40E0-9EA3-513DB305AA68@bonfireproductions.com> <20070203203736.GX21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: I've added it to Digg. Please Digg it. http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona On 2/3/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 02:48:14PM -0500, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > > > I'm sorta off-net right at the moment but if someone can get to > > digg.com and "digg" a link to something solid like this blog (not the > > I've done it for reddit http://freeculture.reddit.com/info/12pou/comments > what's the digg URL to mod up? > > > wikipedia entry) then I am sure I can get people to "digg" the > > article to the top of the pile. > > > > This is probably his best bet - I'd digg it myself but the CGI won't > > submit on this mobile. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFFxPKQdbAkQ4sp9r4RAiOxAJ49Oy5CJkV6C7n4mLfxVdcqVEobuwCcDVoh > CcTdFXVofoFfZKo9MBGgZIg= > =Ue6K > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 20:41:24 2007 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (gts) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:41:24 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:07:17 -0500, Robert Bradbury wrote: > Why is AZ executing a CA bench warrant? I'm wondering the same. From what I understand his alleged offense was a misdemeanor, not a felony, and this was only a bench warrant anyway. I'm no legal expert but I didn't think the feds got involved in such matters. -gts From bkdelong at pobox.com Sat Feb 3 22:29:17 2007 From: bkdelong at pobox.com (B.K. DeLong) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:29:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: Have we generated a list of reporters who have covered this in the past? I can track them down. Just need names and publications. On 2/3/07, gts wrote: > On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:07:17 -0500, Robert Bradbury > wrote: > > > Why is AZ executing a CA bench warrant? > > I'm wondering the same. > > From what I understand his alleged offense was a misdemeanor, not a > felony, and this was only a bench warrant anyway. I'm no legal expert but > I didn't think the feds got involved in such matters. > > -gts > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) bkdelong at pobox.com +1.617.797.8471 http://www.wkdelong.org Son. http://www.ianetsec.com Work. http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. PGP Fingerprint: 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE FOAF: http://foaf.brain-stream.org From bret at bonfireproductions.com Sat Feb 3 23:20:54 2007 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:20:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <7CC76E76-497A-40E0-9EA3-513DB305AA68@bonfireproductions.com> <20070203203736.GX21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <5AC3AD7D-0AB5-41C3-A627-8DEE6A877E2F@bonfireproductions.com> Thanks so much George - I've sent it on to the AlcorNewEngland list as well as a local Nerds list in the Boston area and a few other pro- human cronies as well. /something to talk about other than ATHF debacle is nice. On Feb 3, 2007, at 3:38 PM, George Dvorsky wrote: > I've added it to Digg. Please Digg it. > http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona > > On 2/3/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: >> On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 02:48:14PM -0500, Bret Kulakovich wrote: >>> >>> I'm sorta off-net right at the moment but if someone can get to >>> digg.com and "digg" a link to something solid like this blog (not >>> the >> >> I've done it for reddit http://freeculture.reddit.com/info/12pou/ >> comments >> what's the digg URL to mod up? >> >>> wikipedia entry) then I am sure I can get people to "digg" the >>> article to the top of the pile. >>> >>> This is probably his best bet - I'd digg it myself but the CGI won't >>> submit on this mobile. >> >> -- >> Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org >> ______________________________________________________________ >> ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com >> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE >> >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) >> >> iD8DBQFFxPKQdbAkQ4sp9r4RAiOxAJ49Oy5CJkV6C7n4mLfxVdcqVEobuwCcDVoh >> CcTdFXVofoFfZKo9MBGgZIg= >> =Ue6K >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 3 23:53:15 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:53:15 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] ATTN: KEITH HENSON LEGAL SUPPORT FUND Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203174850.0524b180@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Friends, Within the first hour we have received $350.00 from donations. Please help by donating any amount you can. Even $5.00 will help. This is a great start! "We are providing Extropy Institute's website as a location to send donations in support of Keith. You can locate the donation page here: http://www.extropy.org or go directly here: http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm " Many thanks, Natasha Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/314e4d57/attachment.html From ben at goertzel.org Sun Feb 4 01:08:42 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:08:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> <35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org> <003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org> Yes, but in the case of CF, many of the replicators have been respected scientists at decent universities... not just crackpots in science fair experiments... I don't really care about theoretical questions about hypothetical situations, I'm more interesting in talking about the details of this particular case, which you are not informed about... Ben On Feb 3, 2007, at 1:02 PM, John K Clark wrote: > "Ben Goertzel" > >> The experiments are simple but hard to get right > > One of the greatest understatements of all time! A simple well > publicized > experiment that was true but imposable to confirm for 17 years > would be > unprecedented in Science, at least for the last few centuries; I > think you'd > have to go back to Hero of Alexandria's steam engine or the Baghdad > battery, > and even then they weren't really well publicized. > > Ben, let me ask you a purely theoretical question, suppose two > fairly well > respected scientists had performed a simple experiment and claimed a > revolutionary result, and suppose, just for the sake of argument > they were > wrong. What do you imagine the results would be 17 years later? I > would > think crackpots would still be repeating it in science fair > experiments and > they would still be claiming revolutionary results, and I would > imagine real > scientists would have forgotten about the entire sorry fiasco and > moved on > to more productive things. Does any of this sound familiar? > > John K Clark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sun Feb 4 03:43:43 2007 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 19:43:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody References: <0JCW00JDRC09VC80@caduceus1.gmu.edu><6.2.1.2.2.20070203115708.030810c0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c7480e$ac3ba300$cd17b743@BOXX> Hi guys, to contribute, I spent the day making banners for Keith.These animated gifs are available to you to post on your website, pass around or forward in support of Keith. They are in various sizes, large, medium and small. Now I recommend the gifs - they have a real punch, but just in case you need jpgs, they are available for you as well. These are all in one place for you, here: http://nanogirl.com/keith/ I tried to make the model as much to Keith's likeness as I can, I'm not sure about his eyecolor but the most important point of the banner is the message and I think that is clear. You may pass the banners and the above link to whomever you like - however if it is to press let me know. I know this banner is a small gesture, but I hope it helps in spreading the word and gathering support. All our best to Arel. Keith - we are keeping our fingers crossed for you. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller www.nanogirl.com From amara at amara.com Sun Feb 4 08:03:37 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:03:37 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: I looked at the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup for the first time in my life. Not recommended. But Keith is mentioned by his supporters in there, among that other stuff. To raise media awareness, these are the valuable pieces of information that I saw posted in the newsgroup from two persons (John Dorsay and Eldon). The jail has a media contact person (who would've thought?), named Susan Quayle who will be at these numbers Monday morning, Arizona time. Therefore if you're a media person, use this. 928-777-1924 928-771-3286 Main points about his legal status: 1. Keith was convicted of a misdemeanor offense in California. Can a person be extradited from Arizona for a misdemeanor conviction? 2. Keith was convicted of "interfering with a religion", an offense which is (as far as I know), unique to California. Can a person be extradited from Arizona when he has not done anything that would be considered illegal in Arizona? 3. The judge prohibited Keith from presenting a proper and complete defense. Will this fact be considered when a decision is made about extradition? (Jay, can you post this to your blog, under title: "Points for the Media" ?) Amara From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Feb 3 17:55:15 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 11:55:15 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203104450.02dd1e60@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070203115409.02ff0268@pop-server.austin.rr.com> I don't know. Shall we create one? I can email Arel and get her input. Natasha At 11:51 AM 2/3/2007, you wrote: >Natasha - do we have a good, one-paragraph summary detailing Keith's >contributions to the Transhumanisim movement? > >Might give a bit more relevance to a posting on all our respective >blogs & sites. > >On 2/3/07, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > > > At 07:17 AM 2/3/2007, George Dvorsky wrote: > > > > > > I just got this very disturbing email from Arel. Please do what you can to > > help. > > Keith is a long, long time friend of many and this community and we > must do > > what we can to help him and Arel. > > > > Natasha > > > > Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary > > Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, > > Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture > > > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, > > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the > > circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system > > perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > wta-talk mailing list > > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > > > > > > > > >-- >B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) >bkdelong at pobox.com >+1.617.797.8471 > >http://www.wkdelong.org Son. >http://www.ianetsec.com Work. >http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. >http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. >http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. > > >PGP Fingerprint: >38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE > >FOAF: >http://foaf.brain-stream.org >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/e9dbc8b9/attachment.html From davekrieger at pobox.com Sun Feb 4 07:45:58 2007 From: davekrieger at pobox.com (Dave Krieger) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 23:45:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: <8d49352c0702032345j4f344a9r18816d6c1c8fad3@mail.gmail.com> The oldest old-timers might recognize my name. Keith's arrest was just brought to my attention and I just caught up on the thread on the web archive. I wanted to raise a couple of points about Scientology that I haven't seen mentioned yet: First, please remember that Scientology is big on infiltration, and if they identify the mailing list (and ExI) as the nexus of assistance for Keith, they are likely to assign some of their operatives to gather intelligence and inject noise... potentially, an incapacitating level of noise. I'm glad to see that my attempt to post as a non-member was rejected, but it may be also be prudent to change the subscription policy to require approval for a while. The public web archive should remain available, as it's a useful way to rally the non-subscriber troops (like me), but any information that could be useful to Scientology should definitely be kept to out-of-band email. Members should disregard any posts from anyone they don't know by reputation (including me ;-) and in particular avoid assigning any responsibility to any "volunteers" who aren't well-known within the list. Second, I saw some references to Keith's Wikipedia article as a proposed resource to provide to news media. Scientology may target the article for vandalism (in fact I'm surprised they haven't already, but then they never have had much 'net savvy); it may be best to preemptively request that the article be locked. dk Simpletoneity, n. The phenomenon of many people doing the same stupid thing all at once. From davekrieger at pobox.com Sun Feb 4 07:50:08 2007 From: davekrieger at pobox.com (Dave Krieger) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 23:50:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Your message to extropy-chat awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d49352c0702032350n4c212f46o3b8002969c4a0cbb@mail.gmail.com> Ah, list moderation... even better. Nice to see all those lessons we learned back in the early '90's took. :-D dk Deathicate, v. To speak in opposition to life extension, cryonics, etc. "Guests are asked to refrain from deathicating in the pool." On 2/3/07, extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Your mail to 'extropy-chat' with the subject > > Re: Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > The reason it is being held: > > Post to moderated list > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/confirm.cgi/extropy-chat/6f2e19ee245accd3e62aac7d8bb6c301440bccc3 > > From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Feb 1 02:53:20 2007 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry Colvin) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:53:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Down Syndrome) New column NBICS and Military Products out Message-ID: <31485175.1170298401260.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Forwarded Message----- > >An overview article describing nano-weapons programs in several countries >is the first one I have seen. > >Terry > > >-----Forwarded Message----- >>From: Gregor Wolbring >>Sent: Jan 30, 2007 5:47 PM >>To: DOWN-SYN at LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU >>Subj: New column NBICS and Military Products out >> >>< http://www.innovationwatch.com/choiceisyours/choiceisyours-2007-01-30.htm > >> >> >>Cheers >>Gregor > > >Terry W. Colvin >Sierra Vista, Arizona From amara at amara.com Sun Feb 4 11:55:28 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:55:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- DIGG Message-ID: Don't forget to 'digg' the article. Registration on digg is simple. http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From eugen at leitl.org Sun Feb 4 12:09:50 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:09:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- DIGG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070204120950.GI21677@leitl.org> On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 12:55:28PM +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > Don't forget to 'digg' the article. Registration on digg is simple. > > http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona Great, and it made the reddit front page, too: http://reddit.com/ #7 right now. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/0b9b6274/attachment.bin From TwiceIrish at usflagdepot.com Sun Feb 4 11:40:45 2007 From: TwiceIrish at usflagdepot.com (TwiceIrish) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 05:40:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody References: Message-ID: <01ef01c74851$4e9de530$6401a8c0@TwiceIrish> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara Graps" To: Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:03 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > > I looked at the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup for the first time in > my life. Not recommended. But Keith is mentioned by his supporters in > there, among that other stuff. To raise media awareness, these are the > valuable pieces of information that I saw posted in the newsgroup from > two persons (John Dorsay and Eldon). It's a strange newsgroup, hard to decipher for the uninitiated. Keith has many supporters many are working diligently to help him. > > The jail has a media contact person (who would've thought?), named Susan > Quayle who will be at these numbers Monday morning, Arizona time. > > Therefore if you're a media person, use this. > 928-777-1924 > 928-771-3286 I believe there is a typo here. The correct number is perhaps 928-771-1924. The phone numbers should be checked more thoroughly before being posted anywhere else. (snip) ~Shirley Shirley Dalzell U.S. Flag Depot, Inc. www.usflag.org www.usflagdepot.com From rbarreira at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 13:20:19 2007 From: rbarreira at gmail.com (Ricardo Barreira) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:20:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <8d49352c0702032345j4f344a9r18816d6c1c8fad3@mail.gmail.com> References: <8d49352c0702032345j4f344a9r18816d6c1c8fad3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5df798750702040520y3249b07ege35087a483f4cddc@mail.gmail.com> Hello, An important problem is that no mainstream media has picked up any news on this yet. I wanted to try submitting a story on this to slashdot, but would like to do it with a link to a respectful news website. People who can contact respectful journalists to run this, please do! Regards, Ricardo Barreira On 2/4/07, Dave Krieger wrote: > The oldest old-timers might recognize my name. Keith's arrest was just > brought to my attention and I just caught up on the thread on the web > archive. I wanted to raise a couple of points about Scientology that I > haven't seen mentioned yet: > > First, please remember that Scientology is big on infiltration, and if > they identify the mailing list (and ExI) as the nexus of assistance > for Keith, they are likely to assign some of their operatives to > gather intelligence and inject noise... potentially, an incapacitating > level of noise. I'm glad to see that my attempt to post as a > non-member was rejected, but it may be also be prudent to change the > subscription policy to require approval for a while. The public web > archive should remain available, as it's a useful way to rally the > non-subscriber troops (like me), but any information that could be > useful to Scientology should definitely be kept to out-of-band email. > > Members should disregard any posts from anyone they don't know by > reputation (including me ;-) and in particular avoid assigning any > responsibility to any "volunteers" who aren't well-known within the > list. > > Second, I saw some references to Keith's Wikipedia article as a > proposed resource to provide to news media. Scientology may target the > article for vandalism (in fact I'm surprised they haven't already, but > then they never have had much 'net savvy); it may be best to > preemptively request that the article be locked. > > dk > Simpletoneity, n. The phenomenon of many people doing the same stupid > thing all at once. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From TwiceIrish at usflagdepot.com Sun Feb 4 14:20:40 2007 From: TwiceIrish at usflagdepot.com (TwiceIrish) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 08:20:40 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- Advice from Lolits References: Message-ID: <02a301c74867$a6429040$6401a8c0@TwiceIrish> (This is advice from LOLITS, a representative of LOLITS is watching the current situation of Keith too. ) Bob wrote: People who care about someone in Keith's situation must contact the jail authorities and present their concerns.the more letters the better. Let them know that political, activist and jail/prison reformers are watching closely to see how the inmate is treated, i.e. does he receive prescribed medication, protection from other inmates, etc. Have someone from a friendly media source phone or inquire as to possibly interviewing Keith. Whether they intend to or not, jail officials are now very concerned about media oversight about their operation(s). Constant vigilance is what is going to be needed. Mention group names, like the LOLITS, and others you find on the internet in your communication with the jail administration. If he has received threats - with or without evidence - make the officials aware of that and of your concern. Let them know immediately should anything happen that Keith has friends who will follow up on any harm that comes to him with a media and political blitz about how they failed to keep him safe. Bob - Everything Military -- ~Shirley Shirley Dalzell U.S. Flag Depot, Inc. www.usflag.org www.usflagdepot.com From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Feb 4 15:21:38 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:21:38 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] ATTN: DAY 1 - KEITH HENSON LEGAL SUPPORT FUND Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070204091652.044ab5f8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Friends, On first day of this campaign we raised $930.00 in donations! Thank you! Please forward this to anyone and everyone. "We are providing Extropy Institute's website as a location to send donations in support of Keith. You can locate the donation page here: http://www.extropy.org or go directly here: http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm " Please help by donating any amount you can. Even $5.00 will help. Many thanks, Natasha Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/dae28075/attachment.html From amara at amara.com Sun Feb 4 15:43:40 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:43:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- How to Reach Newspapers Message-ID: Ricardo Barreira rbarreira at gmail.com : >Hello, >An important problem is that no mainstream media has picked up any >news on this yet. I wanted to try submitting a story on this to >slashdot, but would like to do it with a link to a respectful news >website. >People who can contact respectful journalists to run this, please do! >Regards, >Ricardo Barreira It's a shame that Boing Boing are choosing not to step into this fire. Understandable, perhaps. Others are working on trying to reach 'respectable media'. I've sent the below to a couple of different people at a large Arizona newspaper. If you fill in your particular slant on this, customizing it as you like, then more newspapers, can be covered. Choose from the list of newspapers here, and begin. Go to particular people listed at the 'Contact' who work at News desks and Features desks and address them by name in your email. California and Arizona Newspapers http://www.50states.com/news/arizona.htm http://www.50states.com/news/calif.htm Amara ============ FILL IN and email ======================================== Dear XXX I am a reader of your newspaper XXX. This email is to alert you to a story you or your colleagues may be interested in covering. I've collected the relevant points into a press release, below. If you have questions, you can reach me at this email or XXX (phone). You can gain more information from Arel Lucas [(928) 445-4412 or (323) 712-5492], as well. I've known Keith for XXX years as an accomplished scientist, engineer and futurist. He's in a bad situation and any media coverage that your newspaper could put towards his story may just protect him from what he and his family fear most. Sincerely yours, YOU Your email Anti-Scientology activist Keith Henson taken into custody Keith Henson, an outspoken anti-Scientology activist, was arrested last Friday (February 2) night by Prescott, Arizona Police (928) 771-3286, and is currently being held at the Prescott Detention Center in Arizona [1]. His wife, Arel Lucas, says she is unsure why he was stopped, but upon checking his Canadian driver's license, he taken into custody on a 6-year old bench warrant issued by a Riverside County, California judge. He is slated to appear before a judge on Monday February 5, regarding a Riverside County (Scientology related) warrant [2]. Henson's troubles began in 2001 when he was convicted of "interfering with a religion", a misdemeanor under California law, for picketing outside Scientology's facility in Hemet, California. He left to Canada before serving any time after receiving a number of death threats. He was deported from Canada in 2005 after his asylum bid was rejected. His location until February 2, 2007 was unknown. His legal situation since 2001 raises questions regarding the influence of the Church of Scientology (CoS) over Riverside County's judicial system and the changes in Canada's position on Keith's refugee status after 9-11. His present situation raises more legal points [3]. Lucas strongly suspects that the Church of Scientology is involved in Henson's current incarceration and fears for both his life and her own. The death threats have been constant since 2001. Scientology's power and reach has become considerable in recent years, leading to accusations that it is not so much a cult as it is an organized crime outfit that disguises itself as a religious organization. Learn more about Keith Henson and his situation ------------------------------------------------ Arel Lucas, wife of Keith Henson: (928) 445-4412 or (323) 712-5492. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/ http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona http://www.jefallbright.net/keith_henson Some background on CoS here http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-scientology18dec18,0,2963052.story?coll=la-homepage-calendar-widget [1] Yavapai County Government: Clerk of Superior Court 120 S Cortez St Prescott, AZ 86303 (928) 771-3312 http://ww2.co.yavapai.az.us/departments/Sct/SctHome.asp He is case number 389486 and booked under his full name, Howard Keith Henson. [2] The jail has a media contact person, named Susan Quayle, who will be at these numbers Monday morning, Arizona time. 928-777-1924 928-771-3286 [3] Main points about his legal status: 1. Keith was convicted of a misdemeanor offense in California. Can a person be extradited from Arizona for a misdemeanor conviction? 2. Keith was convicted of "interfering with a religion", an offense which is (as far as I know), unique to California. Can a person be extradited from Arizona when he has not done anything that would be considered illegal in Arizona? 3. The judge prohibited Keith from presenting a proper and complete defense. Will this fact be considered when a decision is made about extradition? From jonkc at att.net Sun Feb 4 17:00:12 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:00:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org> Message-ID: <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> "Ben Goertzel" > many of the replicators have been respected > scientists at decent universities And yet these respected scientists at decent universities prefer to be published in Spoon Bending Digest rather than Nature or Science. How odd. John K Clark From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 17:23:17 2007 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:23:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Your message to extropy-chat awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <8d49352c0702032350n4c212f46o3b8002969c4a0cbb@mail.gmail.com> References: <8d49352c0702032350n4c212f46o3b8002969c4a0cbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0702040923k32465d50uc5002f929fea611e@mail.gmail.com> 11:21 Sunday, 4 February 2007 On 2/4/07, Dave Krieger wrote: > Ah, list moderation... even better. Nice to see all those lessons we > learned back in the early '90's took. :-D > Only user error, I fear. I meant to send a screen shot to Robert, but hit "Reply to all" by accident. This sent it to the list, and the list manager rejected an oversized attachement. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 17:40:53 2007 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:40:53 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <01ef01c74851$4e9de530$6401a8c0@TwiceIrish> References: <01ef01c74851$4e9de530$6401a8c0@TwiceIrish> Message-ID: <5366105b0702040940q19b48df5mfcac97f1261cc334@mail.gmail.com> 11:39 Sunday, 4 February 2007 On 2/4/07, TwiceIrish wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amara Graps" [snip] > > Therefore if you're a media person, use this. > > 928-777-1924 > > 928-771-3286 > > I believe there is a typo here. The correct number is perhaps 928-771-1924. > > The phone numbers should be checked more thoroughly before being posted > anywhere else. > > > (snip) > > ~Shirley I can verify the second phone number reaches the Prescott Detention Center. I'll post all of these after I verify the first number. -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Feb 4 18:00:41 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:00:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> <20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> <35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org> <003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org> <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com> At 12:00 PM 2/4/2007 -0500, John K Clark wrote: >"Ben Goertzel" > > > many of the replicators have been respected > > scientists at decent universities > >And yet these respected scientists at decent universities prefer to be >published in Spoon Bending Digest rather than Nature or Science. How odd. It would only be odd if Nature and Science did not have a policy in place of refusing to consider papers on this topic, since the topic is agreed to be MEGA-BULLSHIT. There must be a way for controversial claims to break through such an impasse, but it's not obvious how. Presumably if any of the researchers ever develop a highly reliable fuel cell and put it on the market without getting successfully prosecuted for fraud, there'll be some mild throat-clearing and the papers will start to appear. Nothing succeeds like excess (heat)--although it took long enough for the greenhouse effect to be accepted. Damien Broderick From eugen at leitl.org Sun Feb 4 19:22:50 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:22:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Your message to extropy-chat awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <5366105b0702040923k32465d50uc5002f929fea611e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8d49352c0702032350n4c212f46o3b8002969c4a0cbb@mail.gmail.com> <5366105b0702040923k32465d50uc5002f929fea611e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070204192250.GP21677@leitl.org> On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 11:23:17AM -0600, Jay Dugger wrote: > Only user error, I fear. I meant to send a screen shot to Robert, but Nope, no user error. > hit "Reply to all" by accident. This sent it to the list, and the list > manager rejected an oversized attachement. All new users are on moderation by default. Size limits are orthogonal to that. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/f3cf9745/attachment.bin From scerir at libero.it Sun Feb 4 19:32:05 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:32:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer><1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org><001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> the Italian National Agency for the New Technologies, Energy and the Environmental (ENEA) http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/index-eng.htm has a (slow) page about cold fusion (last update: 2003) and this paper A.De Ninno, A. Frattolillo, A. Rizzo, E. del Giudice, G. Preparata "Experimental evidence of 4He production in a cold fusion experiment" RT/2002/41/FUS http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf. www.fusione.enea.it/pubblications/TR/2002/RT-2002-41-FUS.pdf They write, at the end, "The presence of 4He provides evidence that a nuclear process occurred in the cell; a nuclear reaction has been obtained with purely chemical procedures." From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Feb 4 19:44:01 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 13:44:01 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> <20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> <35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org> <003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org> <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com> <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070204134137.0224f910@satx.rr.com> At 08:32 PM 2/4/2007 +0100, Serafino wrote: >the Italian National Agency for the New Technologies, >Energy and the Environmental (ENEA) >http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/index-eng.htm >has a (slow) page about cold fusion >(last update: 2003) Yeah, latest news page update seems to be 2003. And yet they haven't repudiated their earlier reports. Is this a govt supported lab? Damien Broderick From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 20:19:54 2007 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:19:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] String theory testable? Message-ID: Extropes, I've never felt encouraged that the extra dimensions of string theory would be detectable/accessible from our "dimensional level" of reality. My (barely dilettante-level) impression was that substantially more energy (orders of magnitude?) would be needed to "blast open" the subject "extra-dimensional" structures than was available using current particle-physics high-energy collision gear. So the following article --hope it's more than fluff -- came as a pleasant surprise: Physicists find way to 'see' extra dimensions http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/uow-pfw020207.php The researchers use the big bang itself to provide the requisite energy, and the heavens themselves as the data recording "device". Gives new meaning to the credo of proto-extropians past: "A sentient being's reach should exceed ver grasp, or what's a heaven for?" Robert Browning (mostly) -- Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles From amara at amara.com Sun Feb 4 20:32:32 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:32:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings Message-ID: Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com >Is this a govt supported lab? Yes. (ENEA-Frascati is five minutes away, do you want a picture ? :-) ) "Supported", as in 'adequate money for the Italian scientists and their research' is, however, a debatable topic (for all Italian government supported laboratories). Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 20:47:54 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:47:54 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/4/07, Amara Graps wrote: > > Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com > >Is this a govt supported lab? > > Yes. (ENEA-Frascati is five minutes away, do you want a picture ? :-) ) > Amara, at some point, if our ever so distant future paths should cross again, please do not hesitate to remind me to find that "instance" at which I loved you. I make no claims as to how long such "instances" could or should last. I am however willing to acknowledge their existence and express such. In my list of people I most admire, you are right up there at the top. Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/c622e65c/attachment.html From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 21:11:52 2007 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:11:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Your message to extropy-chat awaits moderator approval In-Reply-To: <5366105b0702040923k32465d50uc5002f929fea611e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8d49352c0702032350n4c212f46o3b8002969c4a0cbb@mail.gmail.com> <5366105b0702040923k32465d50uc5002f929fea611e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0702041311r560ca547nfd62b480063d3094@mail.gmail.com> Two unrelated events, I think. My message certainly bounced due to its oversized attachment. Would that the follow-up had bounced due to its misspelling word! -- Jay Dugger http://jaydugger.suprglu.com Sometimes the delete key serves best. From amara at amara.com Sun Feb 4 21:27:53 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:27:53 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings Message-ID: Robert: >[...]In my list of people I most admire, you are right up there at the top. Yeah? Did you know that there is a crater on the moon with your name? http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/jsp/FeatureTypesData2.jsp?systemID=3&bodyID=11&typeID=9&system=Earth&body=Moon&type=Crater,%20craters&sort=AName&show=Fname&show=Lat&show=Long&show=Diam&show=Stat&show=Orig I guess that there must be some 'Robert impact ejecta' somewhere too. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From aiguy at comcast.net Sun Feb 4 21:50:23 2007 From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:50:23 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- How to ReachNewspapers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <021001c748a6$79be15a0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2> Maybe we could get SouthPark to pick up Keith Henson in an episode. Since Chef has already been transformed into Darth Vadar like Dark Scientologist, the boys could rescue Keith from the the Scientologist new DeathStar. They could reach the Death Star on a Top Secret Extropian space ship powered by cold fusion. Since Trey Parker and Matt Stone are already pissed at the Scientologists for stealing chef away they may be interested in getting some more digs in. That should piss the Scientologists off and teach them not to pick on Extropians! >> Anti-Scientology activist Keith Henson taken into custody Keith Henson, an outspoken anti-Scientology activist, was arrested last Friday (February 2) night by Prescott, Arizona Police (928) 771-3286, and is currently being held at the Prescott Detention Center in Arizona [1]. His wife, Arel Lucas, says she is unsure why he was stopped, but upon checking his Canadian driver's license, he taken into custody on a 6-year old bench warrant issued by a Riverside County, California judge. He is slated to appear before a judge on Monday February 5, regarding a Riverside County (Scientology related) warrant [2]. Henson's troubles began in 2001 when he was convicted of "interfering with a religion", a misdemeanor under California law, for picketing outside Scientology's facility in Hemet, California. He left to Canada before serving any time after receiving a number of death threats. He was deported from Canada in 2005 after his asylum bid was rejected. His location until February 2, 2007 was unknown. His legal situation since 2001 raises questions regarding the influence of the Church of Scientology (CoS) over Riverside County's judicial system and the changes in Canada's position on Keith's refugee status after 9-11. His present situation raises more legal points [3]. Lucas strongly suspects that the Church of Scientology is involved in Henson's current incarceration and fears for both his life and her own. The death threats have been constant since 2001. Scientology's power and reach has become considerable in recent years, leading to accusations that it is not so much a cult as it is an organized crime outfit that disguises itself as a religious organization. Learn more about Keith Henson and his situation ------------------------------------------------ Arel Lucas, wife of Keith Henson: (928) 445-4412 or (323) 712-5492. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/ http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona http://www.jefallbright.net/keith_henson Some background on CoS here http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-scientology18dec18,0,2963052.story?col l=la-homepage-calendar-widget [1] Yavapai County Government: Clerk of Superior Court 120 S Cortez St Prescott, AZ 86303 (928) 771-3312 http://ww2.co.yavapai.az.us/departments/Sct/SctHome.asp He is case number 389486 and booked under his full name, Howard Keith Henson. [2] The jail has a media contact person, named Susan Quayle, who will be at these numbers Monday morning, Arizona time. 928-777-1924 928-771-3286 [3] Main points about his legal status: 1. Keith was convicted of a misdemeanor offense in California. Can a person be extradited from Arizona for a misdemeanor conviction? 2. Keith was convicted of "interfering with a religion", an offense which is (as far as I know), unique to California. Can a person be extradited from Arizona when he has not done anything that would be considered illegal in Arizona? 3. The judge prohibited Keith from presenting a proper and complete defense. Will this fact be considered when a decision is made about extradition? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From ben at goertzel.org Sun Feb 4 23:10:51 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:10:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org> <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <3B000F5A-9429-49A0-9B89-4E24EE168315@goertzel.org> It's not a matter of preference -- Nature and Science refuse to publish CF-related papers, for stupid reasons as Beaudette discusses... ben On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:00 PM, John K Clark wrote: > "Ben Goertzel" > >> many of the replicators have been respected >> scientists at decent universities > > And yet these respected scientists at decent universities prefer to be > published in Spoon Bending Digest rather than Nature or Science. > How odd. > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Feb 4 23:39:46 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 17:39:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith Henson, Scientology Critic Arrest in 10 Zen Monkeys Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070204173932.02e88920@pop-server.austin.rr.com> >"Scientology Fugitive" Arrested by RU Sirius > >http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/02/04/scientology-fugitive-arrested/ Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/bcac1910/attachment.html From moses2k at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 00:46:30 2007 From: moses2k at gmail.com (Chris Petersen) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:46:30 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: <3aff9e290702041646l705dfa35vb1751fb8f1d0689f@mail.gmail.com> Cp'ed Amara's press release to a Technorati WTF. http://technorati.com/wtf/keith-henson/2007/02/04/anti-scientology-activist-keith-henson-taken-into--1 Forgive the minor formatting annoyances; I was not given the option to preview. :) -Chris On 2/4/07, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org < extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into Custody (Eugen Leitl) > 2. Re: Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into Custody > (George Dvorsky) > 3. Re: [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody (gts) > 4. Re: [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > (B.K. DeLong) > 5. Re: Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into Custody > (Bret Kulakovich) > 6. ATTN: KEITH HENSON LEGAL SUPPORT FUND (Natasha Vita-More) > 7. Re: Elvis Sightings (Ben Goertzel) > 8. Re: Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody (Gina Miller) > 9. Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody (Amara Graps) > 10. Re: [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > (Natasha Vita-More) > 11. Re: Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody (Dave Krieger) > 12. Re: Your message to extropy-chat awaits moderator approval > (Dave Krieger) > 13. FWD (Down Syndrome) New column NBICS and Military Products > out (Terry Colvin) > 14. Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- DIGG (Amara Graps) > 15. Re: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- DIGG (Eugen Leitl) > 16. Re: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody (TwiceIrish) > 17. Re: Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody (Ricardo Barreira) > 18. Re: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- Advice from Lolits > (TwiceIrish) > 19. ATTN: DAY 1 - KEITH HENSON LEGAL SUPPORT FUND (Natasha Vita-More) > 20. Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- How to Reach Newspapers > (Amara Graps) > 21. Re: Elvis Sightings (John K Clark) > 22. Re: Your message to extropy-chat awaits moderator approval > (Jay Dugger) > 23. Re: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody (Jay Dugger) > 24. Re: Elvis Sightings (Damien Broderick) > 25. Re: Your message to extropy-chat awaits moderator approval > (Eugen Leitl) > 26. Re: Elvis Sightings (scerir) > 27. Re: Elvis Sightings (Damien Broderick) > 28. String theory testable? (Jeff Davis) > 29. Elvis Sightings (Amara Graps) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 21:37:36 +0100 > From: Eugen Leitl > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into > Custody > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: <20070203203736.GX21677 at leitl.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 02:48:14PM -0500, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > > > I'm sorta off-net right at the moment but if someone can get to > > digg.com and "digg" a link to something solid like this blog (not the > > I've done it for reddit http://freeculture.reddit.com/info/12pou/comments > what's the digg URL to mod up? > > > wikipedia entry) then I am sure I can get people to "digg" the > > article to the top of the pile. > > > > This is probably his best bet - I'd digg it myself but the CGI won't > > submit on this mobile. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 191 bytes > Desc: Digital signature > Url : > http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/f90bedc8/attachment-0001.bin > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:38:48 -0500 > From: "George Dvorsky" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into > Custody > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I've added it to Digg. Please Digg it. > http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona > > On 2/3/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 02:48:14PM -0500, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > > > > > I'm sorta off-net right at the moment but if someone can get to > > > digg.com and "digg" a link to something solid like this blog (not the > > > > I've done it for reddit > http://freeculture.reddit.com/info/12pou/comments > > what's the digg URL to mod up? > > > > > wikipedia entry) then I am sure I can get people to "digg" the > > > article to the top of the pile. > > > > > > This is probably his best bet - I'd digg it myself but the CGI won't > > > submit on this mobile. > > > > -- > > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > > ______________________________________________________________ > > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > > > > iD8DBQFFxPKQdbAkQ4sp9r4RAiOxAJ49Oy5CJkV6C7n4mLfxVdcqVEobuwCcDVoh > > CcTdFXVofoFfZKo9MBGgZIg= > > =Ue6K > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:41:24 -0500 > From: gts > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into > Custody > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; > charset=iso-8859-15 > > On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:07:17 -0500, Robert Bradbury > wrote: > > > Why is AZ executing a CA bench warrant? > > I'm wondering the same. > > From what I understand his alleged offense was a misdemeanor, not a > felony, and this was only a bench warrant anyway. I'm no legal expert but > I didn't think the feds got involved in such matters. > > -gts > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:29:17 -0500 > From: "B.K. DeLong" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into > Custody > To: gts_2000 at yahoo.com, "ExI chat list" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Have we generated a list of reporters who have covered this in the > past? I can track them down. Just need names and publications. > > On 2/3/07, gts wrote: > > On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:07:17 -0500, Robert Bradbury > > wrote: > > > > > Why is AZ executing a CA bench warrant? > > > > I'm wondering the same. > > > > From what I understand his alleged offense was a misdemeanor, not a > > felony, and this was only a bench warrant anyway. I'm no legal expert > but > > I didn't think the feds got involved in such matters. > > > > -gts > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > -- > B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) > bkdelong at pobox.com > +1.617.797.8471 > > http://www.wkdelong.org Son. > http://www.ianetsec.com Work. > http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. > http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. > http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. > > > PGP Fingerprint: > 38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE > > FOAF: > http://foaf.brain-stream.org > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:20:54 -0500 > From: Bret Kulakovich > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Digg.com - Re: Keith Henson Taken into > Custody > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: > <5AC3AD7D-0AB5-41C3-A627-8DEE6A877E2F at bonfireproductions.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > Thanks so much George - I've sent it on to the AlcorNewEngland list > as well as a local Nerds list in the Boston area and a few other pro- > human cronies as well. > > /something to talk about other than ATHF debacle is nice. > > > > On Feb 3, 2007, at 3:38 PM, George Dvorsky wrote: > > > I've added it to Digg. Please Digg it. > > http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona > > > > On 2/3/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > >> On Sat, Feb 03, 2007 at 02:48:14PM -0500, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > >>> > >>> I'm sorta off-net right at the moment but if someone can get to > >>> digg.com and "digg" a link to something solid like this blog (not > >>> the > >> > >> I've done it for reddit http://freeculture.reddit.com/info/12pou/ > >> comments > >> what's the digg URL to mod up? > >> > >>> wikipedia entry) then I am sure I can get people to "digg" the > >>> article to the top of the pile. > >>> > >>> This is probably his best bet - I'd digg it myself but the CGI won't > >>> submit on this mobile. > >> > >> -- > >> Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > >> ______________________________________________________________ > >> ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > >> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > >> > >> > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > >> > >> iD8DBQFFxPKQdbAkQ4sp9r4RAiOxAJ49Oy5CJkV6C7n4mLfxVdcqVEobuwCcDVoh > >> CcTdFXVofoFfZKo9MBGgZIg= > >> =Ue6K > >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:53:15 -0600 > From: Natasha Vita-More > Subject: [extropy-chat] ATTN: KEITH HENSON LEGAL SUPPORT FUND > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org;, cryonet at cryonet.org, > wta-talk at transhumanism.org, extrobritannia at yahoogroups.com > Message-ID: > <6.2.1.2.2.20070203174850.0524b180 at pop-server.austin.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Friends, > > Within the first hour we have received $350.00 from donations. Please > help > by donating any amount you can. Even $5.00 will help. This is a great > start! > > > "We are providing Extropy Institute's website as a location to send > donations in support of Keith. You can locate the donation page here: > http://www.extropy.org or go directly here: > http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm " > > Many thanks, > Natasha > > > Natasha Vita-More > Design Media Artist - Futurist > PhD Candidate, > >Planetary > Collegium > Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy > Institute > Member, Association of Professional > Futurists > Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the > circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system > perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/314e4d57/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:08:42 -0500 > From: Ben Goertzel > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B at goertzel.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > Yes, but in the case of CF, many of the replicators have been > respected scientists at decent universities... not just crackpots in > science fair experiments... > > I don't really care about theoretical questions about hypothetical > situations, I'm more interesting in talking about the details of this > particular case, which you are not informed about... > > Ben > > > > On Feb 3, 2007, at 1:02 PM, John K Clark wrote: > > > "Ben Goertzel" > > > >> The experiments are simple but hard to get right > > > > One of the greatest understatements of all time! A simple well > > publicized > > experiment that was true but imposable to confirm for 17 years > > would be > > unprecedented in Science, at least for the last few centuries; I > > think you'd > > have to go back to Hero of Alexandria's steam engine or the Baghdad > > battery, > > and even then they weren't really well publicized. > > > > Ben, let me ask you a purely theoretical question, suppose two > > fairly well > > respected scientists had performed a simple experiment and claimed a > > revolutionary result, and suppose, just for the sake of argument > > they were > > wrong. What do you imagine the results would be 17 years later? I > > would > > think crackpots would still be repeating it in science fair > > experiments and > > they would still be claiming revolutionary results, and I would > > imagine real > > scientists would have forgotten about the entire sorry fiasco and > > moved on > > to more productive things. Does any of this sound familiar? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 19:43:43 -0800 > From: "Gina Miller" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: <00cc01c7480e$ac3ba300$cd17b743 at BOXX> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi guys, to contribute, I spent the day making banners for Keith.These > animated gifs are available to you to post on your website, pass around or > forward in support of Keith. They are in various sizes, large, medium and > small. Now I recommend the gifs - they have a real punch, but just in case > you need jpgs, they are available for you as well. These are all in one > place for you, here: http://nanogirl.com/keith/ > > I tried to make the model as much to Keith's likeness as I can, I'm not > sure > about his eyecolor but the most important point of the banner is the > message > and I think that is clear. > > You may pass the banners and the above link to whomever you like - however > if it is to press let me know. I know this banner is a small gesture, but > I > hope it helps in spreading the word and gathering support. All our best to > Arel. > > Keith - we are keeping our fingers crossed for you. > > Gina "Nanogirl" Miller > www.nanogirl.com > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:03:37 +0100 > From: Amara Graps > Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > > I looked at the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup for the first time in > my life. Not recommended. But Keith is mentioned by his supporters in > there, among that other stuff. To raise media awareness, these are the > valuable pieces of information that I saw posted in the newsgroup from > two persons (John Dorsay and Eldon). > > The jail has a media contact person (who would've thought?), named Susan > Quayle who will be at these numbers Monday morning, Arizona time. > > Therefore if you're a media person, use this. > 928-777-1924 > 928-771-3286 > > Main points about his legal status: > > 1. Keith was convicted of a misdemeanor offense in California. Can > a person be extradited from Arizona for a misdemeanor conviction? > > 2. Keith was convicted of "interfering with a religion", an offense > which is (as far as I know), unique to California. Can a person be > extradited from Arizona when he has not done anything that would be > considered illegal in Arizona? > > 3. The judge prohibited Keith from presenting a proper and complete > defense. Will this fact be considered when a decision is made about > extradition? > > (Jay, can you post this to your blog, under title: "Points for the Media" > ?) > > Amara > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 11:55:15 -0600 > From: Natasha Vita-More > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [wta-talk] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into > Custody > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: > <6.2.1.2.2.20070203115409.02ff0268 at pop-server.austin.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I don't know. Shall we create one? I can email Arel and get her input. > > Natasha > > At 11:51 AM 2/3/2007, you wrote: > >Natasha - do we have a good, one-paragraph summary detailing Keith's > >contributions to the Transhumanisim movement? > > > >Might give a bit more relevance to a posting on all our respective > >blogs & sites. > > > >On 2/3/07, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > > > > > At 07:17 AM 2/3/2007, George Dvorsky wrote: > > > > > > > > > I just got this very disturbing email from Arel. Please do what you > can to > > > help. > > > Keith is a long, long time friend of many and this community and we > > must do > > > what we can to help him and Arel. > > > > > > Natasha > > > > > > Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, > Planetary > > > Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, > > > Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & > Culture > > > > > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the > circle, > > > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside > the > > > circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system > > > perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > wta-talk mailing list > > > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > > > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >B.K. DeLong (K3GRN) > >bkdelong at pobox.com > >+1.617.797.8471 > > > >http://www.wkdelong.org Son. > >http://www.ianetsec.com Work. > >http://www.bostonredcross.org Volunteer. > >http://www.carolingia.eastkingdom.org Service. > >http://bkdelong.livejournal.com Play. > > > > > >PGP Fingerprint: > >38D4 D4D4 5819 8667 DFD5 A62D AF61 15FF 297D 67FE > > > >FOAF: > >http://foaf.brain-stream.org > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > Natasha Vita-More > Design Media Artist - Futurist > PhD Candidate, > >Planetary > Collegium > Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy > Institute > Member, Association of Professional > Futurists > Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the > circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system > perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070203/e9dbc8b9/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 23:45:58 -0800 > From: "Dave Krieger" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Message-ID: > <8d49352c0702032345j4f344a9r18816d6c1c8fad3 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > The oldest old-timers might recognize my name. Keith's arrest was just > brought to my attention and I just caught up on the thread on the web > archive. I wanted to raise a couple of points about Scientology that I > haven't seen mentioned yet: > > First, please remember that Scientology is big on infiltration, and if > they identify the mailing list (and ExI) as the nexus of assistance > for Keith, they are likely to assign some of their operatives to > gather intelligence and inject noise... potentially, an incapacitating > level of noise. I'm glad to see that my attempt to post as a > non-member was rejected, but it may be also be prudent to change the > subscription policy to require approval for a while. The public web > archive should remain available, as it's a useful way to rally the > non-subscriber troops (like me), but any information that could be > useful to Scientology should definitely be kept to out-of-band email. > > Members should disregard any posts from anyone they don't know by > reputation (including me ;-) and in particular avoid assigning any > responsibility to any "volunteers" who aren't well-known within the > list. > > Second, I saw some references to Keith's Wikipedia article as a > proposed resource to provide to news media. Scientology may target the > article for vandalism (in fact I'm surprised they haven't already, but > then they never have had much 'net savvy); it may be best to > preemptively request that the article be locked. > > dk > Simpletoneity, n. The phenomenon of many people doing the same stupid > thing all at once. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 23:50:08 -0800 > From: "Dave Krieger" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Your message to extropy-chat awaits > moderator approval > To: "extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org" > Message-ID: > <8d49352c0702032350n4c212f46o3b8002969c4a0cbb at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Ah, list moderation... even better. Nice to see all those lessons we > learned back in the early '90's took. :-D > > dk > Deathicate, v. To speak in opposition to life extension, cryonics, > etc. "Guests are asked to refrain from deathicating in the pool." > > > On 2/3/07, extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > wrote: > > Your mail to 'extropy-chat' with the subject > > > > Re: Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > > > > Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. > > > > The reason it is being held: > > > > Post to moderated list > > > > Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive > > notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel > > this posting, please visit the following URL: > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/confirm.cgi/extropy-chat/6f2e19ee245accd3e62aac7d8bb6c301440bccc3 > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:53:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) > From: Terry Colvin > Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (Down Syndrome) New column NBICS and > Military Products out > To: "tlc-brotherhood at nexus.net" > Message-ID: > < > 31485175.1170298401260.JavaMail.root at mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > -----Forwarded Message----- > > > >An overview article describing nano-weapons programs in several countries > >is the first one I have seen. > > > >Terry > > > > > >-----Forwarded Message----- > >>From: Gregor Wolbring > >>Sent: Jan 30, 2007 5:47 PM > >>To: DOWN-SYN at LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU > >>Subj: New column NBICS and Military Products out > >> > >>< > http://www.innovationwatch.com/choiceisyours/choiceisyours-2007-01-30.htm> > >> > >> > >>Cheers > >>Gregor > > > > > >Terry W. Colvin > >Sierra Vista, Arizona > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:55:28 +0100 > From: Amara Graps > Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- DIGG > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Don't forget to 'digg' the article. Registration on digg is simple. > > http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA > Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:09:50 +0100 > From: Eugen Leitl > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- DIGG > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: <20070204120950.GI21677 at leitl.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 12:55:28PM +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > Don't forget to 'digg' the article. Registration on digg is simple. > > > > http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona > > Great, and it made the reddit front page, too: > http://reddit.com/ > > #7 right now. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 191 bytes > Desc: Digital signature > Url : > http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/0b9b6274/attachment-0001.bin > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 05:40:45 -0600 > From: "TwiceIrish" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: <01ef01c74851$4e9de530$6401a8c0 at TwiceIrish> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amara Graps" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:03 AM > Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > > > > > > I looked at the alt.religion.scientology newsgroup for the first time in > > my life. Not recommended. But Keith is mentioned by his supporters in > > there, among that other stuff. To raise media awareness, these are the > > valuable pieces of information that I saw posted in the newsgroup from > > two persons (John Dorsay and Eldon). > > It's a strange newsgroup, hard to decipher for the uninitiated. > > Keith has many supporters many are working diligently to help him. > > > > > > The jail has a media contact person (who would've thought?), named Susan > > Quayle who will be at these numbers Monday morning, Arizona time. > > > > Therefore if you're a media person, use this. > > 928-777-1924 > > 928-771-3286 > > I believe there is a typo here. The correct number is perhaps > 928-771-1924. > > The phone numbers should be checked more thoroughly before being posted > anywhere else. > > > (snip) > > ~Shirley > > Shirley Dalzell > U.S. Flag Depot, Inc. > www.usflag.org > www.usflagdepot.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:20:19 +0100 > From: "Ricardo Barreira" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: > <5df798750702040520y3249b07ege35087a483f4cddc at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hello, > > An important problem is that no mainstream media has picked up any > news on this yet. I wanted to try submitting a story on this to > slashdot, but would like to do it with a link to a respectful news > website. > > People who can contact respectful journalists to run this, please do! > > Regards, > Ricardo Barreira > > On 2/4/07, Dave Krieger wrote: > > The oldest old-timers might recognize my name. Keith's arrest was just > > brought to my attention and I just caught up on the thread on the web > > archive. I wanted to raise a couple of points about Scientology that I > > haven't seen mentioned yet: > > > > First, please remember that Scientology is big on infiltration, and if > > they identify the mailing list (and ExI) as the nexus of assistance > > for Keith, they are likely to assign some of their operatives to > > gather intelligence and inject noise... potentially, an incapacitating > > level of noise. I'm glad to see that my attempt to post as a > > non-member was rejected, but it may be also be prudent to change the > > subscription policy to require approval for a while. The public web > > archive should remain available, as it's a useful way to rally the > > non-subscriber troops (like me), but any information that could be > > useful to Scientology should definitely be kept to out-of-band email. > > > > Members should disregard any posts from anyone they don't know by > > reputation (including me ;-) and in particular avoid assigning any > > responsibility to any "volunteers" who aren't well-known within the > > list. > > > > Second, I saw some references to Keith's Wikipedia article as a > > proposed resource to provide to news media. Scientology may target the > > article for vandalism (in fact I'm surprised they haven't already, but > > then they never have had much 'net savvy); it may be best to > > preemptively request that the article be locked. > > > > dk > > Simpletoneity, n. The phenomenon of many people doing the same stupid > > thing all at once. > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 08:20:40 -0600 > From: "TwiceIrish" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- Advice > from Lolits > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: <02a301c74867$a6429040$6401a8c0 at TwiceIrish> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > (This is advice from LOLITS, a representative of LOLITS is watching the > current situation of Keith too. ) > > > Bob wrote: > > People who care about someone in Keith's situation must contact the jail > authorities and present their concerns.the more letters the better. Let > them > know that political, activist and jail/prison reformers are watching > closely > to see how the inmate is treated, i.e. does he receive prescribed > medication, protection from other inmates, etc. Have someone from a > friendly > media source phone or inquire as to possibly interviewing Keith. Whether > they intend to or not, jail officials are now very concerned about media > oversight about their operation(s). > Constant vigilance is what is going to be needed. Mention group names, > like > the LOLITS, and others you find on the internet in your communication with > the jail administration. If he has received threats - with or without > evidence - make the officials aware of that and of your concern. Let them > know immediately should anything happen that Keith has friends who will > follow up on any harm that comes to him with a media and political blitz > about how they failed to keep him safe. > > > Bob - Everything Military > > -- > > ~Shirley > Shirley Dalzell > U.S. Flag Depot, Inc. > www.usflag.org > www.usflagdepot.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 09:21:38 -0600 > From: Natasha Vita-More > Subject: [extropy-chat] ATTN: DAY 1 - KEITH HENSON LEGAL SUPPORT FUND > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org;, cryonet at cryonet.org, > wta-talk at transhumanism.org, extrobritannia at yahoogroups.com > Cc: RU Sirius > Message-ID: > <6.2.1.2.2.20070204091652.044ab5f8 at pop-server.austin.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Friends, > > On first day of this campaign we raised $930.00 in donations! Thank > you! Please forward this to anyone and everyone. > > "We are providing Extropy Institute's website as a location to send > donations in support of Keith. You can locate the donation page here: > http://www.extropy.org or go directly here: > http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm " > > Please help by donating any amount you can. Even $5.00 will help. > > Many thanks, > Natasha > > > Natasha Vita-More > Design Media Artist - Futurist > PhD Candidate, > >Planetary > Collegium > Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy > Institute > Member, Association of Professional > Futurists > Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture > > If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, > then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the > circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system > perspective. - Buckminster Fuller > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/dae28075/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:43:40 +0100 > From: Amara Graps > Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- How to > Reach Newspapers > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Ricardo Barreira rbarreira at gmail.com : > >Hello, > > >An important problem is that no mainstream media has picked up any > >news on this yet. I wanted to try submitting a story on this to > >slashdot, but would like to do it with a link to a respectful news > >website. > > >People who can contact respectful journalists to run this, please do! > > >Regards, > >Ricardo Barreira > > It's a shame that Boing Boing are choosing not to step into this fire. > Understandable, perhaps. Others are working on trying to reach > 'respectable media'. > > I've sent the below to a couple of different people at a large Arizona > newspaper. If you fill in your particular slant on this, customizing it > as you like, then more newspapers, can be covered. Choose from the list > of newspapers here, and begin. Go to particular people listed at the > 'Contact' who work at News desks and Features desks and address them > by name in your email. > > California and Arizona Newspapers > http://www.50states.com/news/arizona.htm > http://www.50states.com/news/calif.htm > > > Amara > > ============ FILL IN and email ======================================== > > Dear XXX > > I am a reader of your newspaper XXX. This email is to alert you to a > story you or your colleagues may be interested in covering. I've > collected the relevant points into a press release, below. If you have > questions, you can reach me at this email or XXX (phone). You can gain > more information from Arel Lucas [(928) 445-4412 or (323) 712-5492], as > well. > > I've known Keith for XXX years as an accomplished scientist, engineer > and futurist. He's in a bad situation and any media coverage that your > newspaper could put towards his story may just protect him from what he > and his family fear most. > > Sincerely yours, > YOU > Your email > > > Anti-Scientology activist Keith Henson taken into custody > > > Keith Henson, an outspoken anti-Scientology activist, was arrested last > Friday (February 2) night by Prescott, Arizona Police (928) 771-3286, > and is currently being held at the Prescott Detention Center in > Arizona [1]. His wife, Arel Lucas, says she is unsure why he was stopped, > but upon checking his Canadian driver's license, he taken into custody > on a 6-year old bench warrant issued by a Riverside County, California > judge. He is slated to appear before a judge on Monday February 5, > regarding a Riverside County (Scientology related) warrant [2]. > > Henson's troubles began in 2001 when he was convicted of "interfering > with a religion", a misdemeanor under California law, for picketing > outside Scientology's facility in Hemet, California. He left to Canada > before serving any time after receiving a number of death threats. He > was deported from Canada in 2005 after his asylum bid was rejected. His > location until February 2, 2007 was unknown. His legal situation since > 2001 raises questions regarding the influence of the Church of > Scientology (CoS) over Riverside County's judicial system and the > changes in Canada's position on Keith's refugee status after 9-11. His > present situation raises more legal points [3]. > > Lucas strongly suspects that the Church of Scientology is involved in > Henson's current incarceration and fears for both his life and her own. > The death threats have been constant since 2001. Scientology's power and > reach has become considerable in recent years, leading to accusations > that it is not so much a cult as it is an organized crime outfit that > disguises itself as a religious organization. > > > Learn more about Keith Henson and his situation > ------------------------------------------------ > > Arel Lucas, wife of Keith Henson: (928) 445-4412 or (323) 712-5492. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson > http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/ > http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona > http://www.jefallbright.net/keith_henson > > Some background on CoS here > > http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-scientology18dec18,0,2963052.story?coll=la-homepage-calendar-widget > > > [1] Yavapai County Government: Clerk of Superior Court > 120 S Cortez St > Prescott, AZ 86303 > (928) 771-3312 > http://ww2.co.yavapai.az.us/departments/Sct/SctHome.asp > > He is case number 389486 and booked under his full name, Howard > Keith Henson. > > [2] The jail has a media contact person, named Susan Quayle, who will be > at these numbers Monday morning, Arizona time. > 928-777-1924 > 928-771-3286 > > [3] Main points about his legal status: > 1. Keith was convicted of a misdemeanor offense in California. Can > a person be extradited from Arizona for a misdemeanor conviction? > > 2. Keith was convicted of "interfering with a religion", an offense > which is (as far as I know), unique to California. Can a person be > extradited from Arizona when he has not done anything that would be > considered illegal in Arizona? > > 3. The judge prohibited Keith from presenting a proper and complete > defense. Will this fact be considered when a decision is made about > extradition? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:00:12 -0500 > From: "John K Clark" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c at MyComputer> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > "Ben Goertzel" > > > many of the replicators have been respected > > scientists at decent universities > > And yet these respected scientists at decent universities prefer to be > published in Spoon Bending Digest rather than Nature or Science. How odd. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:23:17 -0600 > From: "Jay Dugger" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Your message to extropy-chat awaits > moderator approval > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: > <5366105b0702040923k32465d50uc5002f929fea611e at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > 11:21 Sunday, 4 February 2007 > > On 2/4/07, Dave Krieger wrote: > > Ah, list moderation... even better. Nice to see all those lessons we > > learned back in the early '90's took. :-D > > > > Only user error, I fear. I meant to send a screen shot to Robert, but > hit "Reply to all" by accident. This sent it to the list, and the list > manager rejected an oversized attachement. > > > > -- > Jay Dugger > http://jaydugger.suprglu.com > Sometimes the delete key serves best. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:40:53 -0600 > From: "Jay Dugger" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: > <5366105b0702040940q19b48df5mfcac97f1261cc334 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > 11:39 Sunday, 4 February 2007 > > On 2/4/07, TwiceIrish wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Amara Graps" > [snip] > > > > Therefore if you're a media person, use this. > > > 928-777-1924 > > > 928-771-3286 > > > > I believe there is a typo here. The correct number is perhaps > 928-771-1924. > > > > The phone numbers should be checked more thoroughly before being posted > > anywhere else. > > > > > > (snip) > > > > ~Shirley > > > I can verify the second phone number reaches the Prescott Detention > Center. I'll post all of these after I verify the first number. > -- > Jay Dugger > http://jaydugger.suprglu.com > Sometimes the delete key serves best. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:00:41 -0600 > From: Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0 at satx.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 12:00 PM 2/4/2007 -0500, John K Clark wrote: > >"Ben Goertzel" > > > > > many of the replicators have been respected > > > scientists at decent universities > > > >And yet these respected scientists at decent universities prefer to be > >published in Spoon Bending Digest rather than Nature or Science. How odd. > > It would only be odd if Nature and Science did not have a policy in > place of refusing to consider papers on this topic, since the topic > is agreed to be MEGA-BULLSHIT. There must be a way for controversial > claims to break through such an impasse, but it's not obvious how. > Presumably if any of the researchers ever develop a highly reliable > fuel cell and put it on the market without getting successfully > prosecuted for fraud, there'll be some mild throat-clearing and the > papers will start to appear. Nothing succeeds like excess > (heat)--although it took long enough for the greenhouse effect to be > accepted. > > Damien Broderick > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:22:50 +0100 > From: Eugen Leitl > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Your message to extropy-chat awaits > moderator approval > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: <20070204192250.GP21677 at leitl.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Sun, Feb 04, 2007 at 11:23:17AM -0600, Jay Dugger wrote: > > > Only user error, I fear. I meant to send a screen shot to Robert, but > > Nope, no user error. > > > hit "Reply to all" by accident. This sent it to the list, and the list > > manager rejected an oversized attachement. > > All new users are on moderation by default. Size limits are orthogonal to > that. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 191 bytes > Desc: Digital signature > Url : > http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/f3cf9745/attachment-0001.bin > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:32:05 +0100 > From: "scerir" > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97 at archimede> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > the Italian National Agency for the New Technologies, > Energy and the Environmental (ENEA) > http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/index-eng.htm > has a (slow) page about cold fusion > (last update: 2003) and this paper > > A.De Ninno, A. Frattolillo, A. Rizzo, > E. del Giudice, G. Preparata > "Experimental evidence of 4He production > in a cold fusion experiment" > RT/2002/41/FUS > http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf. > www.fusione.enea.it/pubblications/TR/2002/RT-2002-41-FUS.pdf > > They write, at the end, "The presence of 4He provides > evidence that a nuclear process occurred in the cell; > a nuclear reaction has been obtained with purely chemical > procedures." > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 13:44:01 -0600 > From: Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings > To: ExI chat list > Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070204134137.0224f910 at satx.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 08:32 PM 2/4/2007 +0100, Serafino wrote: > > >the Italian National Agency for the New Technologies, > >Energy and the Environmental (ENEA) > >http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/index-eng.htm > >has a (slow) page about cold fusion > >(last update: 2003) > > Yeah, latest news page update seems to be 2003. And yet they haven't > repudiated their earlier reports. > > Is this a govt supported lab? > > Damien Broderick > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:19:54 -0700 > From: "Jeff Davis" > Subject: [extropy-chat] String theory testable? > To: "ExI chat list" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Extropes, > > I've never felt encouraged that the extra dimensions of string theory > would be detectable/accessible from our "dimensional level" of > reality. My (barely dilettante-level) impression was that > substantially more energy (orders of magnitude?) would be needed to > "blast open" the subject "extra-dimensional" structures than was > available using current particle-physics high-energy collision gear. > > So the following article --hope it's more than fluff -- came as a > pleasant surprise: > > Physicists find way to 'see' extra dimensions > http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/uow-pfw020207.php > > The researchers use the big bang itself to provide the requisite > energy, and the heavens themselves as the data recording "device". > Gives new meaning to the credo of proto-extropians past: > > "A sentient being's reach should exceed ver grasp, or what's a heaven > for?" > > Robert Browning (mostly) > > -- > Best, Jeff Davis > > "Everything's hard till you > know how to do it." > Ray Charles > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 29 > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 21:32:32 +0100 > From: Amara Graps > Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com > >Is this a govt supported lab? > > Yes. (ENEA-Frascati is five minutes away, do you want a picture ? :-) ) > > "Supported", as in 'adequate money for the Italian scientists and their > research' is, however, a debatable topic (for all Italian government > supported laboratories). > > Amara > > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA > Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 41, Issue 5 > ******************************************* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/3da8137f/attachment-0001.html From asa at nada.kth.se Mon Feb 5 02:04:21 2007 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 03:04:21 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody In-Reply-To: <3aff9e290702041646l705dfa35vb1751fb8f1d0689f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3aff9e290702041646l705dfa35vb1751fb8f1d0689f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <60262.86.130.30.114.1170641061.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Here is my own minor contribution: http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2007/02/fighting_bad_enlightenment_business_practices.html -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 02:11:45 2007 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:11:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Tech Awards Announcement: 5 awards of $50,000 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070201192118.03d4a458@igc.org> Message-ID: <685115.46103.qm@web32802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear futurist friends, The Millennium Project, American Council for the United Nations University, was an inspiration for The Tech Museum Awards. If you know of any worthwhile innovations in any of the 5 considered areas (education, equality, environment, economic development, and health), please nominate them or tell them to self sominate for each one of the five $50,000 awards: www.techawards.org Futuristically yours, Jos? Luis Cordeiro (www.cordeiro.org) Director, Venezuela, The Millennium Project (www.StateOfTheFuture.org) ============================================================ Anyone can nominate anyone for any technological innovation that benefits humanity for $50,000 award - Five will be given this year at the Tech Awards: TECH MUSEUM AWARDING $250,000 IN CASH PRIZES Global Call for Nominations of Innovators Using Technology to Benefit Humanity The Tech Museum Awards is a unique and prestigious program that honors and awards innovators from around the world who use technology to benefit humanity in the categories of: Education, Equality, Environment, Economic Development, and Health. Reward those making a difference and nominate today. A simple nomination form can be found at www.techawards.org . Self-nominations are accepted and encouraged. Individuals, nonprofit organizations, and companies are all eligible. Program details, including judging criteria, can be found at The Tech Museum Awards website listed above. Each year, 25 Laureates are honored at a gala dinner, invited to participate in press and media coverage, and introduced to a network of influential advisors. An inspirational and unforgettable event, the black-tie celebration will be held at The Tech Museum of Innovation in San Jose, California, on November 7, 2007. One Laureate in each category will be granted a $50,000 cash prize. Gillian Caldwell of WITNESS, 2003 Laureate in the Equality award category and cash prize recipient, called The Tech Museum Awards "...a truly remarkable program that has given WITNESS acclaim for using technology to document human rights abuses. I was deeply honored to be recognized, along with 24 other innovators from around the world who are working to improve human life through technology. The exposure generated from receiving this award and the $50,000 cash prize will surely lead to expanded services, awareness, and improved solutions for ending violations of human rights." We encourage you to forward this announcement to any contacts you have that may be interested in nominating a candidate for this award. Thank you for your support. Nominations Deadline: March 26, 2007 www.techawards.org The Tech Museum Awards Partners & Sponsors -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/1023cc01/attachment.html From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Feb 5 05:04:55 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 23:04:55 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: RE: Fwd: Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070204230412.04453e98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> I am fowarding this message from Amara D' Angelica > > From: COLIN BENNET [ mailto:sharkley1 at btinternet.com ] > > > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 1:47 PM > > > To: amaraa at gmail.com > > > Subject: Scientology > > > > > > Hi Amara, > > > I have been warning people on Jack's List about > > > Scientology for some time, particularly about the activities of Bill > > > Ryan. If there is anyway I can help you, tell this dreadful story, > > > please get in touch. > > > Colin Bennett > > > Author, London > > > The New Fortean Times > > > www.combat-diaries.co.uk Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070204/e71fb2f3/attachment.html From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 06:47:19 2007 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:47:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] SNOWCRASHING INTO THE DIAMOND AGE: AN ESSAY BY EXTROPIA DaSILVA Message-ID: <470a3c520702042247v3daae585u913d130b4f7198b4@mail.gmail.com> I have posted on my blog a fascinating new essay by Extropia DaSilva: SNOWCRASHING INTO THE DIAMOND AGE http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/snowcrashing_into_the_diamond_age_an_essay_by_extropia_dasilva/ See also the previous profile Extropia DaSilva, transhumanist avatar http://transumanar.com/index.php/site/extropia_dasilva_transhumanist_avatar/ From rbarreira at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 14:35:29 2007 From: rbarreira at gmail.com (Ricardo Barreira) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:35:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Slashdot story regarding Keith Henson's arrest Message-ID: <5df798750702050635s2b4a0887v811662b950c69a6f@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I've submitted a slashdot story regarding Keith Henson's arrest. With the new collaborative system for approving stories, anyone (?) who has a slashdot account (they're free) can vote for the story. Go to the following URL: http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl and search for the word scientology (it might be in the second or third results page). Regards, Ricardo From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Feb 5 16:41:54 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:41:54 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] PHOENIX: KPNX Channel 12 Interviews Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070205104003.02f7b2c0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> If anyone is attending Keith Hanson's hearing or is in Phoenix and can meet with Brandon Kline of KPNX, channel 12, local Phoenix, please call him at 602-694-1045. Can be on-camera, or off-camera for privacy. Many thanks, Natasha Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070205/4bc96ea9/attachment.html From jonkc at att.net Mon Feb 5 16:47:55 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:47:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer><1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org><001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002d01c74945$70c26e70$4e054e0c@MyComputer> "Damien Broderick" > It would only be odd if Nature and Science did not have a policy in > place of refusing to consider papers on this topic, since the topic > is agreed to be MEGA-BULLSHIT. There must be a way for controversial > claims to break through such an impasse If it really is MEGA-BULLSHIT as I am certain it is then you are right, there is no way the cold fusion faithful can break through the impasse and get published in a journal (or just a website) that was not downright comical. If in the extraordinarily unlikely event there really is something to it and all the editors at Nature and Science have had the intelligence of The Three Stooges for the last 17 years then the way around the impasse is called "Physical Review Letters" or dozens of other perfectly respectable journals that would make every physicist in the world sit up and take notice. I repeat what I said before because I think it is very important, a simple very well publicized experiment that was true but imposable to be confirmed for 17 years would be UNPRECEDENTED in science. But in all fairness I should add that they are not as bad as the ESP people, their experiments haven't been confirmed in about 150 years. Ben Goertzel Wrote: > Nature and Science refuse to publish CF-related papers, for stupid > reasons as Beaudette discusses... Well I agree with you on one thing, somebody is stupid, either all the editors at Nature and Science for the last 17 years have been stupid or this Beaudette person is. My God people don't you even have a rudimentary bullshit detector? Fantastic claims, cries of persecution, irreproducible results, this just reeks of junk science! John K Clark From russell.rukin at lineone.net Mon Feb 5 17:02:15 2007 From: russell.rukin at lineone.net (Russell Rukin) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:02:15 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- DIGG Front page on Digg now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C76317.4020608@lineone.net> Made the front page... although a different digg. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/4/13026/70551 Russell R Amara Graps wrote: >Don't forget to 'digg' the article. Registration on digg is simple. > >http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona > >Amara > > > From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Feb 5 18:33:05 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 12:33:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Arizona: Freedom of Speach! Journalist Ready to Meet Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070205123128.047a9ef8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> We have a journalist waiting to meet someone in Phoenix at the courthouse to talk about freedom of speech. Brandon Kline of KPNX, channel 12, local Phoenix, please call him at 602-694-1045. Natasha Vita-More Design Media Artist - Futurist PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070205/ca1d02b4/attachment.html From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 20:29:01 2007 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:29:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] spreading the communication Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- DIGG Front page on Digg now Message-ID: <9b9887c80702051229j2058426ap6fd2b13180128d87@mail.gmail.com> i sent this link to oprah.com story section. ilsa bartlett On 2/5/07, Russell Rukin wrote: > > Made the front page... although a different digg. > http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/4/13026/70551 > > Russell R > > Amara Graps wrote: > > >Don't forget to 'digg' the article. Registration on digg is simple. > > > >http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_critic_jailed_in_Arizona > > > >Amara > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to every other person. john coletrane www.mikyo.com/ilsa http://rewiring.blogspot.com www.hotlux.com/angel.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070205/97833cc9/attachment.html From amara at amara.com Mon Feb 5 20:38:28 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:38:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- Updates Message-ID: Some Updates http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/ Result of 5 February Hearing At the hearing, Keith Henson's legal representation, Michael Kielsky, stated that they are fighting extradition and requested Keith's release. The presiding judge set a court date for March 5, 2007 at 1:30 pm in the Justice Court, and set the security at $7,500 cash or bond, with standard conditions. The story has been "slashdotted" http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/05/1334203 linking to the Wikipedia article. Does anyone else want to try to 'lock' it? I tried, by writing to 'info-en-o at wikimedia.org ' but I might be clueless about the procedure. and the "digg" on R.U. Sirius' article is soaring http://digg.com/politics/Scientology_Fugitive_update Amara From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Mon Feb 5 21:56:19 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:56:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Update: Henson Support Fund Message-ID: <380-22007215215619436@M2W018.mail2web.com> As of 2/5/07 at 3:00 pm central time, we have $4,660.13 in our fund. Thank you for your generous donations. Natasha Vita-More -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 22:13:39 2007 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (gts) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:13:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Indifference (was Coin Flip Paradox) In-Reply-To: References: <9980.25050.qm@web60524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A person interested in this subject wrote to me in private e-mail, suggesting that I should elaborate and clarify my meaning about a certain sentence I wrote here. I'm embarrassed because English is my first language and I have no excuse for not communicating my meanings clearly. I'm sorry if my meanings are so unclear. If they are unclear then I'm grateful to the person who pointed it out. The dubious passage of mine was this one: "...the frequency theory is an objectivist, non-epistemic account of probability in which the epistemic principle of indifference is irrelevant and nonsensical." I was responding here to Stu's argument that the principle of indifference is somehow provable according to frequentist rationale. I maintain it is not. On the frequency theory of probability, probabilities are not in any way subjective judgments. They are instead properties of the objective world. They exist "out there" in the supposed world of objective physical reality, as opposed to "in here" in the subjective world of the mind. The principle of indifference implies an epistemic (subjective) idea of probability. I think it is impossible to prove the logical veracity of the principle of indifference given the objectivist assumptions of frequentism. This is why I wrote that the frequency theory is an objectivist, non-epistemic account of probability in which the epistemic (non-objectivist) principle of indifference is irrelevant and nonsensical. Under frequentism the principle of indifference is neither true nor false. It is nonsensical. My apologies if that idea is not clear. -gts From gts_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 22:15:38 2007 From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (gts) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:15:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Indifference (was Coin Flip Paradox) In-Reply-To: References: <9980.25050.qm@web60524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A person interested in this subject wrote to me in private e-mail, suggesting that I should elaborate and clarify my meaning about a certain sentence I wrote here. I'm embarrassed because English is my first language and I have no excuse for not communicating my meanings clearly. I'm sorry if my meanings are so unclear. If they are unclear then I'm grateful to the person who pointed it out. The dubious passage of mine was this one: "...the frequency theory is an objectivist, non-epistemic account of probability in which the epistemic principle of indifference is irrelevant and nonsensical." I was responding here to Stu's argument that the principle of indifference is somehow provable according to frequentist rationale. I maintain it is not. On the frequency theory of probability, probabilities are not in any way subjective judgments. They are instead properties of the objective world. They exist "out there" in the supposed world of objective physical reality, as opposed to "in here" in the subjective world of the mind. The principle of indifference implies an epistemic (subjective) idea of probability. I think it is impossible to prove the veracity of the principle of indifference given the objectivist assumptions of frequentism. This is why I wrote that the frequency theory is an objectivist, non-epistemic account of probability in which the epistemic (non-objectivist) principle of indifference is irrelevant and nonsensical. Under frequentism I think the principle of indifference is neither true nor false. I think it is nonsensical. My apologies if that idea is not clear. -gts From ben at goertzel.org Tue Feb 6 02:38:53 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:38:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <002d01c74945$70c26e70$4e054e0c@MyComputer> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer><1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org><001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com> <002d01c74945$70c26e70$4e054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <0EEF4165-2F84-4D1D-AC65-636ACFB2B077@goertzel.org> > > Well I agree with you on one thing, somebody is stupid, either all the > editors at Nature and Science for the last 17 years have been > stupid or this > Beaudette person is. The editors at Nature and Science may be intelligent, but have not paid much attention to this issue due to their egos and particular attitudes. Beaudette has paid a lot more attention to the issue, obviously. > My God people don't you even have a rudimentary > bullshit detector? I have a very good bullshit detector, and it tells me quite definitively that YOU are very much FULL OF MEGA-BULLSHIT!! ;-) Whether you are right or wrong, your attitude is profoundly unscientific. Hopefully once the Singularity comes, you'll choose some neural upgrades; and at that point, you'll see the error of the ways of your human predecessor... -- Ben G From amara at amara.com Tue Feb 6 04:40:55 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 05:40:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- Updates [2] Message-ID: A good summary of events regarding Keith http://news.com.com/Tom+Cruise+missile+jokester+arrested/2100-1030_3-6156516.html Amara From amara at amara.com Tue Feb 6 04:58:32 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 05:58:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- Updates [3] Message-ID: Keith is out of jail now. Amara From jonkc at att.net Tue Feb 6 06:28:12 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 01:28:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer><1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org><001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com><002d01c74945$70c26e70$4e054e0c@MyComputer> <0EEF4165-2F84-4D1D-AC65-636ACFB2B077@goertzel.org> Message-ID: <00b701c749b8$059eece0$02044e0c@MyComputer> "Ben Goertzel" >The editors at Nature and Science may be intelligent, but have not paid >much attention to this issue due to their egos Nature and Science are not the only fish in the sea, there are dozens of other fine journals, but apparently those editors are also too envious and full of themselves to publish a superb scientific paper. Every single one of them, and for 17 years! I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. Noah's Ark, astrology, picture of Jesus found in a pizza level ridiculous. > Beaudette has paid a lot more attention to the issue, obviously. Yea, I bet he spends more time on flying saucers and spoon bending too. John K Clark From eugen at leitl.org Tue Feb 6 08:26:08 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:26:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] [declan@well.com: [Politech] Keith Henson, Scientology critic, arrested in "Tom Cruise" missile case [fs]] Message-ID: <20070206082608.GU21677@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From: Declan McCullagh Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 23:59:27 -0800 To: politech at politechbot.com Subject: [Politech] Keith Henson, Scientology critic, arrested in "Tom Cruise" missile case [fs] User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) Keith Henson, an engineer, writer, programmer, and critic of Scientology was arrested on Friday: http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/' He had been convicted in 2001 on some bizarre charges of threatening Scientology that grew out of a Usenet post and his picketing: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,43420,00.html At which time he fled to Canada and sought asylum, but subsequently returned to the states: http://www.politechbot.com/p-02072.html http://www.politechbot.com/p-02122.html After interviewing his defense counsel and a prosecutor today, I wrote an article that you can find here: http://news.com.com/2100-1030_3-6156516.html R.U. Sirius' writeup is also thorough: http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/02/04/scientology-fugitive-arrested/ http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2007/02/05/a-reprint-of-an-interview-with-keith-henson-by-ru-sirius-2/ Scientology's position paper on copyright they sent to Politech a few years ago: http://www.politechbot.com/p-03917.html http://www.politechbot.com/p-03929.html And some background on Scientology: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html http://www.spaink.net/fishman/home.html For background, I'll include part of the Usenet thread about the "Tom Cruise" missile below. -Declan --- Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology From: F... at SkepticTank.ORG (Fredric L. Rice) Date: 2000/07/10 Subject: Re: "Gold Base" French-German ICBM / Tom Cruise Missle Coordinates Keith Henson wrote: >Patrick Volk wrote: >snip >> The range of a Pluton MRBM = [Deleted for purpose of national >> security] >> CEP on the platform = [Deleted for purpose of national security], >> although I imagine probably around 750 yards. > No way. Modern weapons are accurate to a matter of a few tens > of yards. The terminal guidence ones are good to single digits. You're using the dumbed-down GPS for that, though, aren't you? The military GPS resolution is going to give you an impact point within _feet_ of the desired destination point, isn't it? And even if not, with Keith Henson up on the hill providing on-target IR illumination, GPS won't even be needed. }:-} --- Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology From: pjv... at home.com (Patrick Volk) Date: 2000/07/11 Subject: Re: "Gold Base" French-German ICBM / Tom Cruise Missle Coordinates On Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:09:02 GMT, nos... at holysmoke.org (Shy David ... >Cult Compound Guard House > 33N50.021 >116W59.274 ... .. meanwhile, back at HQ *gets out slide rule* The range of a Pluton MRBM = [Deleted for purpose of national security] CEP on the platform = [Deleted for purpose of national security], although I imagine probably around 750 yards. Hey, wait... is that a French flag on that new weather station outside of gold base? Hmm... Says here the French government has just purchased 3 square miles of territory from the Mexican government for an escargot farm in Baja California. And they've asked for some cleared airspace between there and Gold Base... to test the Concorde.. Hmm... I'll have to check what C3I has.. --- Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology From: Keith Henson Date: 2000/07/11 Subject: Re: "Gold Base" French-German ICBM / Tom Cruise Missle Coordinates Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author Patrick Volk wrote: snip > The range of a Pluton MRBM = [Deleted for purpose of national > security] > CEP on the platform = [Deleted for purpose of national security], > although I imagine probably around 750 yards. No way. Modern weapons are accurate to a matter of a few tens of yards. The terminal guidence ones are good to single digits. Keith Henson --- Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology From: pjv... at home.com (Patrick Volk) Date: 2000/07/11 Subject: Re: "Gold Base" French-German ICBM / Tom Cruise Missle Coordinates >You're using the dumbed-down GPS for that, though, aren't you? The >military GPS resolution is going to give you an impact point within >_feet_ of the desired destination point, isn't it? And even if not, >with Keith Henson up on the hill providing on-target IR illumination, >GPS won't even be needed. }:-} With a MRBM, it's about the equivilant of standing on top of the Empire State Building, and hawking a lugie into a shot glass on the street below. I was reckoning that the French haven't improved their platform stability to that point. Not to mention, if the CoS were to do a high-altitude EMP burst.... Plus, I like Keith too much to have him on a hill within 2 miles of a site where 300 kilotons of hurt is gonna rain down... Keith, if you're gonna be there... Get the SPF 8000 sunblock... and some sunglasses. :) [btw: Deleted for reasons of national security = I don't know, and didn't feel like checking the Organization of American Scientists site for the details] --- _______________________________________________ Politech mailing list Archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ Moderated by Declan McCullagh (http://www.mccullagh.org/) ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070206/91fa4572/attachment.bin From pharos at gmail.com Tue Feb 6 10:51:00 2007 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:51:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith [Henson] Taken into Custody- Updates In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/5/07, Amara Graps wrote: > Some Updates > > http://freekeithhenson.blogspot.com/ > > Result of 5 February Hearing > > At the hearing, Keith Henson's legal representation, Michael Kielsky, > stated that they are fighting extradition and requested Keith's release. > The presiding judge set a court date for March 5, 2007 at 1:30 pm in the > Justice Court, and set the security at $7,500 cash or bond, with > standard conditions. > The New York Times and CNET news now has a supportive article on Keith. (Pretty bad publicity for Xology as well). BillK From ben at goertzel.org Tue Feb 6 15:24:05 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:24:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <00b701c749b8$059eece0$02044e0c@MyComputer> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer><1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org><001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com><002d01c74945$70c26e70$4e054e0c@MyComputer> <0EEF4165-2F84-4D1D-AC65-636ACFB2B077@goertzel.org> <00b701c749b8$059eece0$02044e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <6B4624AE-0AE8-47BC-A0FB-A483C7B26209@goertzel.org> > >> Beaudette has paid a lot more attention to the issue, obviously. > > Yea, I bet he spends more time on flying saucers and spoon bending > too. > > John K Clark You lose the bet. How much money are you going to send me? From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Feb 6 15:58:45 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:58:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <6B4624AE-0AE8-47BC-A0FB-A483C7B26209@goertzel.org> References: <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> <20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> <35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org> <003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org> <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com> <002d01c74945$70c26e70$4e054e0c@MyComputer> <0EEF4165-2F84-4D1D-AC65-636ACFB2B077@goertzel.org> <00b701c749b8$059eece0$02044e0c@MyComputer> <6B4624AE-0AE8-47BC-A0FB-A483C7B26209@goertzel.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070206095657.024f2c88@satx.rr.com> At 10:24 AM 2/6/2007 -0500, Ben wrote: > >> Beaudette has paid a lot more attention to the issue, obviously. > > > Yea, I bet he spends more time on flying saucers and spoon bending > > too. > > > > John K Clark > > >You lose the bet. How much money are you going to send me? Hey, since I was the one who introduced Beaudette's book into this discussion, I want a share of the bet payout too! Damien Broderick From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Feb 6 17:21:32 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:21:32 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Update: Keith Henson Support Fund Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070206111103.02f9cc98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Greetings, As of this morning, Extropy Institute has received donations in the amount of $5,089.00. A check is being issued to Arel Lucas on behalf of Keith Henson today. Any further donations will be sent to Arel a week from now. If there continues to be more donations, we will leave the support fund open to receive those donations for Keith. Many thanks for your ongoing kindness and generosity. Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070206/5c6e8b15/attachment.html From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Feb 6 20:09:00 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:09:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131091915.03ae7448@pop.bloor.is.net.cable. rogers.com> References: <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070123163620.02269730@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070126162355.022cd960@satx.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070128234250.03a64c70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <003601c743ed$d9f32810$da064e0c@MyComputer> <0D622747-2CE8-449E-B50C-B32610822AB7@goertzel.org> <005701c743f3$dfc82be0$da064e0c@MyComputer> <008501c743f8$58045da0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2> <7.0.1.0.2.20070129171355.023cade0@satx.rr.com> <003601c7444c$61ee02e0$5c0a4e0c@MyComputer> <002701c74492$05be4ca0$df064e0c@MyComputer> <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org> <45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com> <001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com> <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> >I remember with near horror a time when a very senior scientist (not >in geology) went off on a disjointed emotional rant that was scary to >behold. (He was shaking with rage.) I was reading *his* copy of >_Scientific American_ at his house and made some innocent comment about an >article on plate tectonics. Clark's "BULLSHIT" doesn't compare, though >perhaps that's the effect of a text only channel. > >I made a post about this on the memetics list which never drew any >comment. I will repost it here if there is interest. Looks like no interest. Keith From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Feb 6 21:05:37 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:05:37 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP References: <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070123163620.02269730@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070126162355.022cd960@satx.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070128234250.03a64c70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <003601c743ed$d9f32810$da064e0c@MyComputer> <0D622747-2CE8-449E-B50C-B32610822AB7@goertzel.org> <005701c743f3$dfc82be0$da064e0c@MyComputer> <008501c743f8$58045da0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2> <7.0.1.0.2.20070129171355.023cade0@satx.rr.com> <003601c7444c$61ee02e0$5c0a4e0c@MyComputer> <002701c74492$05be4ca0$df064e0c@MyComputer> <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org> <45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com> <001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com> <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070206150310.02372070@satx.rr.com> At 03:09 PM 2/6/2007 -0500, Keith Henson wrote: >Looks like no interest. > >Keith This is the coolest re-entry from the Jaws of Hell that I've ever seen! You doing okay, man? We're worried about you! (Or is this a post queued on yr machine since before the buggers nabbed you, and just now sent when you booted up yr machine?) Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Feb 6 20:19:02 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:19:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ray gun In-Reply-To: <8d71341e0602040650w61c2e230pec1b6b8e45236dd8@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20060203234309.04efec00@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <1138914555_52661@S1.cableone.net> <6.2.1.2.0.20060203115336.01ebef10@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <02ac01c628f1$ee5b0650$c00d4e0c@MyComputer> <5.1.0.14.0.20060203234309.04efec00@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060204124553.04f17298@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 02:50 PM 2/4/2006 +0000, you wrote: Found this unsent in my out buffer. Keith >On 2/4/06, Keith Henson <hkhenson at rogers.com> >wrote: >>The original (stone age) evolved purpose of war was to kill a lot of >>warriors. Modern wars are less discriminating. > >It's the other way around: the evolved function of war is to eliminate >competitors. Sometimes women and children would be kept alive, but often >they would be killed off. The idea that noncombatants are sacrosanct is a >modern one. I think history, especially that of primitive peoples, would support women (if not children) usually being booty in tribal wars. The logic of my model for stone age wars is *really* twisted, but I think there is a case for it. First, humans have had no significant predators besides other humans for a *long* time. Certainly back to fire and probably back to the first chipped rocks 2 plus million years ago. Second, our line has always been able to over fill our ecological niche. We know war has been a major population control mode for people living close to the stone age. Excellent background material here: http://cniss.wustl.edu/workshoppapers/gatpres1.pdf Published in Anthropological Quarterly, 73.1 (2000), 20-34. THE HUMAN MOTIVATIONAL COMPLEX: EVOLUTIONARY THEORY AND THE CAUSES OF HUNTER-GATHERER FIGHTING "For instance, one critic (McCauley 1990: 3) queried why, if fighting was beneficial for inclusive fitness, was it not continuous and ubiquitous. "He failed to realize that fighting, like any other behaviour, could be only one possible tactic for inclusive fitness, depending for its success, and activation, on the presence of specific conditions." Fighting neighbors with similar technology (rocks) was a risky business Because (iFighting wn the stone age fighting other humans wasumans fight when the ecological outlook is bad. and the risk of From femmechakra at yahoo.ca Tue Feb 6 03:43:04 2007 From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:43:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Questionnaire on senses Message-ID: <746960.59148.qm@web37208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anders Sandberg, Sat Jan 27 15:33:47 UTC 2007 wrote: >Smells can rather directly evoke memories and >emotions. They get directly integrated in a general >context in the hippocampal system rather than treated >as elements to be analysed and then put together. That's odd I always believed that touch and taste where elements that where analysed and then put together while, sight, smell and hearing could directly evoke memories and emotions. Could you please forward me some links, I'd be very interested in reading about it. Thanks Anna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From exi at syzygy.com Tue Feb 6 21:12:01 2007 From: exi at syzygy.com (Eric Messick) Date: 6 Feb 2007 21:12:01 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070123163620.02269730@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070126162355.022cd960@satx.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070128234250.03a64c70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <003601c743ed$d9f32810$da064e0c@MyComputer> <0D622747-2CE8-449E-B50C-B32610822AB7@goertzel.org> <005701c743f3$dfc82be0$da064e0c@MyComputer> <008501c743f8$58045da0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2> <7.0.1.0.2.20070129171355.023cade0@satx.rr.com> <003601c7444c$61ee02e0$5c0a4e0c@MyComputer> <002701c74492$05be4ca0$df064e0c@MyComputer> <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org> <45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com> <001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com> <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20070206211201.11244.qmail@syzygy.com> >Looks like no interest. > >Keith We've had more pressing things to discuss in your absence. Welcome back! -eric From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Feb 6 21:03:41 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:03:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Where's the wow? Message-ID: This image provides a powerful example of the discord that can be detected between truth and high-powered marketing. Look at the expressions on the faces of these Microsoft agents. http://www.davinciinstitute.com/new/admin/content/FCKeditor/uploads/wown ow.jpg - Jef From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Feb 6 21:11:03 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:11:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070123163620.02269730@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20070126162355.022cd960@satx.rr.com><5.1.0.14.0.20070128234250.03a64c70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><003601c743ed$d9f32810$da064e0c@MyComputer><0D622747-2CE8-449E-B50C-B32610822AB7@goertzel.org><005701c743f3$dfc82be0$da064e0c@MyComputer><008501c743f8$58045da0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2><7.0.1.0.2.20070129171355.023cade0@satx.rr.com><003601c7444c$61ee02e0$5c0a4e0c@MyComputer><002701c74492$05be4ca0$df064e0c@MyComputer><9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org><45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com><001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com><001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: Keith Henson wrote: > >I made a post about this on the memetics list which never drew any > >comment. I will repost it here if there is interest. > > Looks like no interest. > > Keith Some of us have been a bit distracted since Saturday. Welcome back. - Jef From george at betterhumans.com Tue Feb 6 21:30:08 2007 From: george at betterhumans.com (George Dvorsky) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:30:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: References: <002701c74492$05be4ca0$df064e0c@MyComputer> <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org> <45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com> <001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com> <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: Good to see you back, Keith. George From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 6 21:17:42 2007 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:17:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <516714.176.qm@web60512.mail.yahoo.com> Welcome back, Keith. Have your ears been burning?:) --- Keith Henson wrote: > > >I remember with near horror a time when a very > senior scientist (not > >in geology) went off on a disjointed emotional rant > that was scary to > >behold. (He was shaking with rage.) I was reading > *his* copy of > >_Scientific American_ at his house and made some > innocent comment about an > >article on plate tectonics. Clark's "BULLSHIT" > doesn't compare, though > >perhaps that's the effect of a text only channel. > > > >I made a post about this on the memetics list which > never drew any > >comment. I will repost it here if there is > interest. > > Looks like no interest. > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > Stuart LaForge alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu "If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves." - Thomas Edison ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Tue Feb 6 21:34:09 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:34:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Where's the wow? Message-ID: <380-2200722621349718@M2W034.mail2web.com> From: Jef Allbright >http://www.davinciinstitute.com/new/admin/content/FCKeditor/uploads/wown ow.jpg LOL!! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE From asa at nada.kth.se Tue Feb 6 23:05:16 2007 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:05:16 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Questionnaire on senses In-Reply-To: <746960.59148.qm@web37208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <746960.59148.qm@web37208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2040.86.151.136.15.1170803116.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Anna Taylor wrote: > Anders Sandberg, Sat Jan 27 15:33:47 UTC 2007 wrote: > >>Smells can rather directly evoke memories and >>emotions. They get directly integrated in a general >>context in the hippocampal system rather than treated >>as elements to be analysed and then put together. > > That's odd I always believed that touch and taste > where elements that where analysed and then put > together while, sight, smell and hearing could > directly evoke memories and emotions. > > Could you please forward me some links, I'd be very > interested in reading about it. Well, I have always heard this as the standard view among neuroscientists. At least my memory research colleagues (who mess around with related parts of the brain) never doubted it, and half of all textbooks of memory start with Proust's Madeleine-cookie quote. As a starter this paper is a nice overview: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7117/full/nature05405.html "Smell images and the flavour system in the human brain" Some others: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/94/8/4119 "Emotion, olfaction, and the human amygdala: Amygdala activation during aversive olfactory stimulation" (also, look at the citing papers below) http://impulse.schc.sc.edu/articles/2004_01_01_Hughes.pdf "Olfaction, Emotion & the Amygdala: arousal-dependent modulation of long-term autobiographical memory and its association with olfaction: beginning to unravel the Proust phenomenon?" http://www.sirc.org/publik/smell_emotion.html It can even enhance cognition: http://chemse.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/31/5/415 "Chemosignals of Fear Enhance Cognitive Performance in Humans" -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From asa at nada.kth.se Tue Feb 6 23:08:11 2007 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:08:11 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070206150310.02372070@satx.rr.com> References: <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070123163620.02269730@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070126162355.022cd960@satx.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070128234250.03a64c70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <003601c743ed$d9f32810$da064e0c@MyComputer> <0D622747-2CE8-449E-B50C-B32610822AB7@goertzel.org> <005701c743f3$dfc82be0$da064e0c@MyComputer> <008501c743f8$58045da0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2> <7.0.1.0.2.20070129171355.023cade0@satx.rr.com> <003601c7444c$61ee02e0$5c0a4e0c@MyComputer> <002701c74492$05be4ca0$df064e0c@MyComputer> <9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org> <45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com> <001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070206150310.02372070@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <2040.86.151.136.15.1170803291.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:09 PM 2/6/2007 -0500, Keith Henson wrote: > >>Looks like no interest. >> >>Keith > > This is the coolest re-entry from the Jaws of Hell that I've ever > seen! Seconded. Great to have you back! -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From jonkc at att.net Tue Feb 6 23:15:54 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:15:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP References: <001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070123163620.02269730@satx.rr.com><7.0.1.0.2.20070126162355.022cd960@satx.rr.com><5.1.0.14.0.20070128234250.03a64c70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><003601c743ed$d9f32810$da064e0c@MyComputer><0D622747-2CE8-449E-B50C-B32610822AB7@goertzel.org><005701c743f3$dfc82be0$da064e0c@MyComputer><008501c743f8$58045da0$6801a8c0@ZANDRA2><7.0.1.0.2.20070129171355.023cade0@satx.rr.com><003601c7444c$61ee02e0$5c0a4e0c@MyComputer><002701c74492$05be4ca0$df064e0c@MyComputer><9B6F2939-30AC-48C6-96FF-B48C7C234BAA@goertzel.org><45BF997F.2000109@pobox.com><001c01c744b6$b482dc00$6e074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070130180555.0261aa88@satx.rr.com><001e01c74500$ff13c230$de064e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070206150310.02372070@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <035901c74a44$d3fc7e40$99044e0c@MyComputer> "Damien Broderick" > This is the coolest re-entry from the Jaws of Hell that I've ever > seen! You know something Damien, you are absolotly correct, that was pretty damn cool. WELCOM BACK KEITH!!! John K Clark From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Tue Feb 6 21:43:42 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:43:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" Message-ID: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> Does anyone have an opinion of what would be the top three "GameChangers"* coming from 2010 to 2030 in the area of interactive media and entertainment from a consumer point of view? *GameChanger: Its "mission is to deliver new business opportunities ? specifically, breakthrough or "game-changing" opportunities. ... GameChanger trades in a market for ideas, rewarding innovators with a variety of remuneration schemes, should their idea become a basis for a commercial venture. However, the GameChanger experience also strongly suggests that people compete for a chance to have their personal vision impact the corporate future." Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Tue Feb 6 23:38:44 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:38:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP Message-ID: <380-22007226233844806@M2W038.mail2web.com> From: Damien Broderick >This is the coolest re-entry from the Jaws of Hell that I've ever >seen! You doing okay, man? We're worried about you! I noticed this. I thought it was way-cool. I mean, sliding in quietly and taking a seat without a big show. Elegant re-entry. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE From nvitamore at austin.rr.com Tue Feb 6 21:31:36 2007 From: nvitamore at austin.rr.com (nvitamore at austin.rr.com) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:31:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Questionnaire on senses Message-ID: <380-22007226213136572@M2W007.mail2web.com> From: Anna Taylor >Anders Sandberg, Sat Jan 27 15:33:47 UTC 2007 wrote: >>Smells can rather directly evoke memories and >>emotions. They get directly integrated in a general >>context in the hippocampal system rather than treated >>as elements to be analysed and then put together.> >That's odd I always believed that touch and taste >where elements that where analysed and then put >together while, sight, smell and hearing could >directly evoke memories and emotions. Olfactoray is significantly associated with memories. I was goign to answer your post a while ago, but didn't think I was contributing anything new, so I hesiatated. But, for me sense of smell is key. >Could you please forward me some links, I'd be very >interested in reading about it. http://www.natasha.cc/olfactory.htm :-) Best wishes, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From moses2k at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 01:42:16 2007 From: moses2k at gmail.com (Chris Petersen) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:42:16 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" In-Reply-To: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <3aff9e290702061742m25e118aclddcb924372981899@mail.gmail.com> Greater sensory immersion (HMDs, tactile, pharm, smell-o-vision), higher-bandwidth input ('power-gloves', EEG, speech rec, eye tracking, etc.), & improved AI (both soft design & game AI)? 2 cents - your mileage may vary. -Chris On 2/6/07, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote: > > Does anyone have an opinion of what would be the top three "GameChangers"* > coming from 2010 to 2030 in the area of interactive media and > entertainment > from a consumer point of view? > > *GameChanger: Its "mission is to deliver new business opportunities ? > specifically, breakthrough or "game-changing" opportunities. ... > GameChanger trades in a market for ideas, rewarding innovators with a > variety of remuneration schemes, should their idea become a basis for a > commercial venture. However, the GameChanger experience also strongly > suggests that people compete for a chance to have their personal vision > impact the corporate future." > > Natasha > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com - Microsoft(r) Exchange solutions from a leading provider - > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070206/f7d6a35b/attachment.html From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Feb 7 01:55:49 2007 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:55:49 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <200702070207.l1727btP008209@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson ... > >I made a post about this on the memetics list which never drew any > >comment. I will repost it here if there is interest. > > Looks like no interest. > > Keith Keith right now we would be interested in anything you had to say, even if it is nothing more than "howdy friends, I am alive." We have been on edge worrying about you for the last several days pal. spike From pj at pj-manney.com Wed Feb 7 02:16:52 2007 From: pj at pj-manney.com (pjmanney) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 21:16:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gun-ownership to homicide rate study query Message-ID: <19021734.1239291170814613085.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Does anyone have access to this article: "State-level homicide victimization rates in the US in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001?2003" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-4M6SG8V-4&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f070a553e280dca8be56240176198c30 Apparently, states with a higher level of gun-ownership have a higher homicide rate... Really??? ;-) I'd appreciate a copy of the study, if it's possible. Everyone's just quoting the press release, with no data at all. Thanks! PJ From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 02:24:35 2007 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:24:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" In-Reply-To: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <62c14240702061824p710173bfoc7580b584a4e9e31@mail.gmail.com> Focusing on the consumer entertainment for a moment: Why go to the overpriced movies with the unruly neighbors, and uncomfortable seating when it is so easy to create a home theater stocked with your favorite snacks? I believe the near future will see an increase in stay-at-home consumption of content as bandwidth increases and 'deals' allow us direct access to larger libraries . Eventually we will grow tired of the solitary and unchanging nature of even our 'favorite' linear content. Consider that today's game consoles have the rendering power to animate a movie like Toy Story in real time (1) So why aren't movie producers designing constraints for characters/plots and allowing their scenarios to 'unfold' in response to audience participation? (OK yeah, I know why) If theater seating had inputs which allowed viewers/participants to choose a direction, and the potentials were actualized on-screen according to the majority vote (or some other algorithm) then there would be some unique experience to involvement with Group A vs Group B. I think this novelty will become especially appealing after we have played out all the solitary consumption of linear content that we can find. Also, I can imagine hybrid Virtual/Actual Reality games becoming more popular - like this: http://www.pacmanhattan.com/about.php It's probably not even worth discussing the explosive popularity of massively multi-player/person domains like World of Warcraft, Second Life or what Nintendo's easily approachable Wii might make available to 'non-gamers' - but it might be an interesting discussion to imagine the side effects or currently unseen consequences of even greater penetration of these virtual worlds on our concept of time-space/reality. (1) I thought I read that this was true - if not, it soon will be. On 2/6/07, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote: > Does anyone have an opinion of what would be the top three "GameChangers"* > coming from 2010 to 2030 in the area of interactive media and entertainment > from a consumer point of view? From jef at jefallbright.net Wed Feb 7 02:54:39 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:54:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gun-ownership to homicide rate study query In-Reply-To: <19021734.1239291170814613085.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <19021734.1239291170814613085.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: pjmanney wrote: > Does anyone have access to this article: > > "State-level homicide victimization rates in the US in relation to > survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001?2003" > > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF- > 4M6SG8V- > 4&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_so > rt=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md > 5=f070a553e280dca8be56240176198c30 I'm going to be at UCSB tonight for a talk on Oppenheimer. I'll see if I can slurp this item onto a memory card while I'm within their hallowed halls. - Jef From kevin at kevinfreels.com Wed Feb 7 03:16:00 2007 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:16:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> <62c14240702061824p710173bfoc7580b584a4e9e31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <088001c74a66$4b5e2850$640fa8c0@kevin> > Focusing on the consumer entertainment for a moment: > > Why go to the overpriced movies with the unruly neighbors, and > uncomfortable seating when it is so easy to create a home theater > stocked with your favorite snacks? I believe the near future will see > an increase in stay-at-home consumption of content as bandwidth > increases and 'deals' allow us direct access to larger libraries . I'm in the early stages of building a business that specializes in building custom home theaters just for the reasons you mention. > Eventually we will grow tired of the solitary and unchanging nature of > even our 'favorite' linear content. I disagree here. the "Choose your own adventure" stories never took over the literary world and I doubt that they will take over film either. Movies are a cultural thing. There's a certain bond there when I say to a total stranger "If she weighs as much as a duck...." and they finish with "she's a witch!", or when someone says to me "Surely you can't be serious" and I reply "I am serious....and don't call me Shirley." Linear stories present an opportunity for people to share fictitious experiences. Telling my daughter to remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf only allows me to pass down the message if the ending of the story were the same for me as it is for her. > Consider that today's game consoles have the rendering power to > animate a movie like Toy Story in real time (1) So why aren't movie > producers designing constraints for characters/plots and allowing > their scenarios to 'unfold' in response to audience participation? > (OK yeah, I know why) If theater seating had inputs which allowed > viewers/participants to choose a direction, and the potentials were > actualized on-screen according to the majority vote (or some other > algorithm) then there would be some unique experience to involvement > with Group A vs Group B. I think this novelty will become especially > appealing after we have played out all the solitary consumption of > linear content that we can find. I expect that we will soon see this in theme parks or specialized theaters similar IMAX but I don't expect it to replace the traditional linear film. Interesting new inventions will come around and add to it making it a greater experience, but we live linear lives and linear stories are easiest for us to relate to. > > Also, I can imagine hybrid Virtual/Actual Reality games becoming more > popular - like this: http://www.pacmanhattan.com/about.php > > It's probably not even worth discussing the explosive popularity of > massively multi-player/person domains like World of Warcraft, Second > Life or what Nintendo's easily approachable Wii might make available > to 'non-gamers' - but it might be an interesting discussion to imagine > the side effects or currently unseen consequences of even greater > penetration of these virtual worlds on our concept of > time-space/reality. > > (1) I thought I read that this was true - if not, it soon will be. > > On 2/6/07, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote: > > Does anyone have an opinion of what would be the top three "GameChangers"* > > coming from 2010 to 2030 in the area of interactive media and entertainment > > from a consumer point of view? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From kevin at kevinfreels.com Wed Feb 7 03:21:05 2007 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:21:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <089901c74a67$01837db0$640fa8c0@kevin> Any development that can fool the body into "feeling" motion. Replacing the worn out old TV screen with goggles or a helmet that allows full 360 movement on a rounded screen. Adding smell to the entire package. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" Does anyone have an opinion of what would be the top three "GameChangers"* coming from 2010 to 2030 in the area of interactive media and entertainment from a consumer point of view? *GameChanger: Its "mission is to deliver new business opportunities - specifically, breakthrough or "game-changing" opportunities. ... GameChanger trades in a market for ideas, rewarding innovators with a variety of remuneration schemes, should their idea become a basis for a commercial venture. However, the GameChanger experience also strongly suggests that people compete for a chance to have their personal vision impact the corporate future." Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 03:55:58 2007 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:25:58 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Where's the wow? In-Reply-To: <380-2200722621349718@M2W034.mail2web.com> References: <380-2200722621349718@M2W034.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0702061955q308f11efwd4c391f9fc1dbf33@mail.gmail.com> I think they might have considered "Ah crap" as their slogan, but decided against it... Emlyn On 07/02/07, nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote: > > From: Jef Allbright > > >http://www.davinciinstitute.com/new/admin/content/FCKeditor/uploads/wown > ow.jpg > > LOL!! > > Natasha > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft(r) Exchange technology - > http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070207/84307e4f/attachment.html From amara at amara.com Wed Feb 7 04:36:05 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 05:36:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP Message-ID: Nice to see you back, Keith. I've never written so much email in my life! I can stop worrying about you, I'm glad you're safe. The next step for you is finding a good criminal lawyer, and trying to gain the help of the ACLU and/or EFF, I think. (Mine and everyone else's suggestions) Ciao for now Amara (off to Holland) -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From eugen at leitl.org Wed Feb 7 08:20:48 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:20:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" In-Reply-To: <089901c74a67$01837db0$640fa8c0@kevin> References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> <089901c74a67$01837db0$640fa8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <20070207082048.GE21677@leitl.org> On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 09:21:05PM -0600, kevinfreels.com wrote: > Any development that can fool the body into "feeling" motion. That one is going to be difficult. Electrostimulation of the vestibular, possibly, but that require precise electrode placement. > Replacing the worn out old TV screen with goggles or a helmet that allows > full 360 movement on a rounded screen. It's remarkable that there are now MEMS accelerometers about anywhere, and geomagnetics sensors, and even bloody photo camers which segment out faces in realtime, but no single HMD worth spit. There are no fully immersive lightweight HMDs for optical reasons, but I guess a triple-screen worth of 30" in front of you could be reasonably useful. > Adding smell to the entire package. Not that I'm anosmic, but fail to see the utility. Bandwidth's way too low. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070207/769ceec6/attachment.bin From kevin at kevinfreels.com Wed Feb 7 08:57:09 2007 From: kevin at kevinfreels.com (kevinfreels.com) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 02:57:09 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com><089901c74a67$01837db0$640fa8c0@kevin> <20070207082048.GE21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <001a01c74a95$f3b50da0$640fa8c0@kevin> > Any development that can fool the body into "feeling" motion. That one is going to be difficult. Electrostimulation of the vestibular, possibly, but that require precise electrode placement. Of course it will be difficult. But we are projecting for 2010-2030 :-) > Replacing the worn out old TV screen with goggles or a helmet that allows > full 360 movement on a rounded screen. It's remarkable that there are now MEMS accelerometers about anywhere, and geomagnetics sensors, and even bloody photo camers which segment out faces in realtime, but no single HMD worth spit. There are no fully immersive lightweight HMDs for optical reasons, but I guess a triple-screen worth of 30" in front of you could be reasonably useful. It's amazing isn't it? Just like there's been cell phones and cheap memory for some time but you still can't get a phone with a 1 or 1 GB mp3 player. > Adding smell to the entire package. Not that I'm anosmic, but fail to see the utility. Bandwidth's way too low. Because it's weird and neat. No more utility than a game should have. After all, you are playing for the fun of it. I'm not sure how it would be done - likely through some kind of replaceable scent paper but then again, that's me back in 2007 guessing about 2030. Much of what I say now will sound silly then. -- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugen Leitl" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Feb 7 20:47:27 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:47:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070204134137.0224f910@satx.rr.com> References: <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> <20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> <35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org> <003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org> <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com> <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207154545.03a8e2b8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 01:44 PM 2/4/2007 -0600, you wrote: >At 08:32 PM 2/4/2007 +0100, Serafino wrote: > > >the Italian National Agency for the New Technologies, > >Energy and the Environmental (ENEA) > >http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/index-eng.htm > >has a (slow) page about cold fusion > >(last update: 2003) > >Yeah, latest news page update seems to be 2003. And yet they haven't >repudiated their earlier reports. Understandable. They may not be working on it in the lab any more, but are back in the office trying to figure out some non magical theory for why this happens. I don't envy them. Keith >Is this a govt supported lab? > >Damien Broderick > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Feb 7 20:53:59 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:53:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207154935.03be6470@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 08:47 PM 2/4/2007 +0000, Robert Bradbury wrote: >On 2/4/07, Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote: >>Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com >> >Is this a govt supported lab? >> >>Yes. (ENEA-Frascati is five minutes away, do you want a picture ? :-) ) > >Amara, at some point, if our ever so distant future paths should cross >again, please do not hesitate to remind me to find that "instance" at >which I loved you. > >I make no claims as to how long such "instances" could or should last. I >am however willing to acknowledge their existence and express such. > >In my list of people I most admire, you are right up there at the top. My sentiments exactly. Amara is one of the few people who I remember from the first time I met her. Next time she is in the states, I am going to ask for a cell sample so (post singularity) I can raise one as a daughter. :-) Keith From scerir at libero.it Wed Feb 7 21:51:08 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:51:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings References: <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede><001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer><1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org><001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com><001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> <5.1.0.14.0.20070207154545.03a8e2b8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <001101c74b02$13b40090$a2971f97@archimede> > > >http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/index-eng.htm > >Yeah, latest news page update seems to be 2003. > >And yet they haven't repudiated their earlier > >reports. > Understandable. They may not be working on it > in the lab any more, but are back in the office > trying to figure out some non magical theory > for why this happens. No, they had the theory, the QED by G.Preparata, a bit different from what Julian Schwinger wrote about the role of the lattice in cold fusion http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue1/colfusthe.html The Italian page says ... http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/ "Per l'anno 2003 non sono stati assegnati finanziamenti ulteriori per cui non sono previsti ulteriori sviluppi." Due to lack of money ... any reasearch on cold fusion came to an end (in 2002). This means that they achieved (reproducible) results both in the production of 4He and heat, but the excess heat (or power) wasn't considerable at all! s. As you can probably see (my pc refuses to play it) that now they are trying another idea ... http://www.pd.infn.it/~dorigo/celticstone.avi From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Feb 7 21:51:50 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:51:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <200702070207.l1727btP008209@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207163252.03bdac78@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 05:55 PM 2/6/2007 -0800, spike wrote: snip >Keith right now we would be interested in anything you had to say, even if >it is nothing more than "howdy friends, I am alive." > >We have been on edge worrying about you for the last several days pal. I am out, not in need of more money at the moment, but keep the checkbooks and paypal accounts handy. I am considering a suit against the IRS to cost the cult its unique and illegal tax status. Judge Silverman, a federal judge in Phoenix invited the suit back in 2002. "If the IRS does, in fact, give preferential treatment to members of the Church of Scientology -- allowing them a special right to claim deductions that are contrary to law and rightly disallowed to everybody else -- then the proper course of action is a lawsuit to put a stop to *that* policy. The remedy is not to require the IRS to let others claim the improper deduction, too." http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/27B565D1754D4E5E88256B50005F20CE/$file/0070753.pdf?openelement I tried this in 1998 but times have changed and this suit is *invited.* This special deal (obtained I believe by blackmail) is the only real accomplishment of the current leader. It transferred upwards of two billion dollars from the US taxpayers to the cult. The only way anyone will be safe to exercise their First Amendment rights to criticize this example of organized crime (the FBI's classification) is when the organization is defunct. Recent estimates are that the cult has shrank by about 50% since they started duking it out with the net. Tom Cruise gets credit for a good part of that. Inadvertently of course. Keith From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Feb 7 22:07:11 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:07:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Emotional memes, was Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207154545.03a8e2b8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable. rogers.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070204134137.0224f910@satx.rr.com> <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> <001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer> <20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com> <20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org> <35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org> <003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer> <1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org> <001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com> <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207170059.039a4198@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Transplanted from the memetics list May 2006 where it generated no comment. In correspondence with Eugene V Kooin, the author of the comment here: >http://genomebiology.com/2001/2/4/comment/1005 > > My main point, however, is a tribute to meme selection: the fittest will > survive! He commented: snip >. . . it is hard for me to understand how many people, including >biologists, can have such a negative attitude (sometimes, almost >violently expressed) to this entire conceptual development. I suppose >this in itself is a peculiar phenomenon to be understood from the point >of view of evolutionary psychology . . . Let's try. Examples first. I remember with near horror a time when a very senior scientist (not in geology) went off on a disjointed emotional rant that was scary to behold. (He was shaking with rage.) I was reading *his* copy of _Scientific American_ at his house and made some innocent comment about an article on plate tectonics. A story illustrating this effect to a T was posted here by Aaron Lynch back in 2004 and expanded on the Extropian mailing list. (That was where the Libertarians freaked out for over a decade about the whole meme concept seemingly because of an article I wrote for _Reason_.) The K/T extinction event meme is another one that inspired high emotion against it for over a decade. Even 25 years after the 200-mile wide crater was found there are "partisans" who still reject the meme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_Crater Drew Westen imaged the effects in brains for political "partisans" but I would bet long odds that the same brain regions were/are active in challenged K/T rejecters. Usually the memes that get tied up with so much emotion are religious or political. Whatever the source, it is clear that a wide variety of memes can obtain this kind of binding to emotional areas of the brain. Are there features of plate tectonics, the "memes about memes" and the K/T event that group them with political or religious memes? What other memes classes have this binding? In some cases, and memetics is one of them, the reaction is almost allergic. People often don't have an expressible meme in competition to the challenge meme; they just emotionally and sometimes violently reject the meme. [Example, recent postings here with high emotional content.] (That does not mean they don't have a meme or set of memes in competition, just that they can't express them.) This business of emotional freak-outs over memes is so widespread among humans that it must be a species typical psychological trait--though people vary in how much they have it. Evolutionary psychology makes the claim that--without exception--every human psychological trait either evolved (example capture-bonding) or is a side effect (drug addiction) of some trait that *did* contribute to reproductive success back in the EEA (Stone Age.) I have been baffled over this for two decades, I still am, but perhaps the above framing of the problem might give someone an idea about how to solve it. The "rules" of the EP game is that you need to show how the "feature" would have directly improved reproductive success in the EEA for those who had it, *or* how the psychological trait is a side effect of some trait that did improve reproductive success. (Extra points if you can suggest ways to test it.) Dawkins makes the case that being gullible may be a feature of children. You can see why believing adults would contribute to reproductive success (those eaten by bears didn't leave descendents). The possibility exists that some memes get trapped in the partial freezing of the brain's ability to learn language that happens around puberty. (That might have something to do with the 13 year-old boys who read Rand.) Or perhaps there is a later freezing in of memes. In that case, we should be able to detect an age cutoff in those who opposed plate tectonics or the K/T extinction. Perhaps it is some side effect of the drive for status to have strong emotional attachments to memes? (None of these feel right in EP terms.) (Added the next day) Or perhaps these emotional bindings to scientific memes (plus religious and political memes) are a side effect of emotional bindings to xenophobic memes. I recently made the case that the trait to pass around xenophobic memes and go non-rational is an evolved species typical behavior of humans facing bad times. http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/4/17/194059/296 It may be active in some people at some level even under low stress conditions. Low level activation of the psychological traits behind capture-bonding (Stockholm Syndrome) seems to account for the rewards people get from BDSM sex practices. Wars and captures were *major* selection factors in the EEA. It should not be a surprise if many of our deepest psychological traits were shaped by such selection. Comments? Keith Henson PS. The theory leads to the prediction that *this* theory will be met with violent rejection by some. :-) From jef at jefallbright.net Wed Feb 7 22:26:31 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:26:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207163252.03bdac78@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070131125556.03b03e70@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070207163252.03bdac78@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: All should be aware that discussions on this list are publicly available and indexed by Google. From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Feb 7 22:18:49 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:18:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 08:08 PM 2/3/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, but in the case of CF, many of the replicators have been >respected scientists at decent universities... not just crackpots in >science fair experiments... Right Ben, places like Stanford and the U of Hawaii are some I remember. >I don't really care about theoretical questions about hypothetical >situations, I'm more interesting in talking about the details of this >particular case, which you are not informed about... The problem with CF or whatever it is, is that (as far as I know) nobody has a theory about why this should occur. Responding to a certain person's posts are a waste of time compared to even the wildest speculations you can think of to account for the observations and suggestions on ways to test them. I have a few ideas. Is there any central place where researchers fish for ideas? Keith From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Feb 7 22:53:10 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:53:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207175302.03b73210@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 09:38 PM 2/5/2007 -0500, Ben wrote: snip >The editors at Nature and Science may be intelligent, but have not >paid much >attention to this issue due to their egos and particular attitudes. I can provide a second example. For reasons that have been analyzed here, the Reason magazine editors took an adverse view of memetics which has (to the best of my knowledge) persisted for over two decades. Keith From jef at jefallbright.net Wed Feb 7 23:05:45 2007 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:05:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Emotional memes, was Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207170059.039a4198@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070204134137.0224f910@satx.rr.com><001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede><001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer><1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org><001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com><001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> <5.1.0.14.0.20070207170059.039a4198@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: Keith wrote: > Transplanted from the memetics list May 2006 where it generated no > comment. > > In correspondence with Eugene V Kooin, the author of the comment > here: > > >http://genomebiology.com/2001/2/4/comment/1005 > > > > My main point, however, is a tribute to meme selection: the > fittest will > > survive! > > He commented: > > snip > >> . . . it is hard for me to understand how many people, including >> biologists, can have such a negative attitude (sometimes, almost >> violently expressed) to this entire conceptual development. I >> suppose this in itself is a peculiar phenomenon to be understood >> from the point of view of evolutionary psychology . . . > > Let's try. Examples first. > > I remember with near horror a time when a very senior scientist > (not in geology) went off on a disjointed emotional rant that was > scary to behold. (He was shaking with rage.) I was reading *his* > copy of _Scientific American_ at his house and made some innocent > comment about an article on plate tectonics. > > A story illustrating this effect to a T was posted here by Aaron > Lynch back in 2004 and expanded on the Extropian mailing list. > (That was where the Libertarians freaked out for over a decade > about the whole meme concept seemingly because of an article I > wrote for _Reason_.) > > The K/T extinction event meme is another one that inspired high > emotion against it for over a decade. Even 25 years after the > 200-mile wide crater was found there are "partisans" who still > reject the meme. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_Crater > Drew Westen imaged the effects in brains for political "partisans" > but I would bet long odds that the same brain regions were/are > active in challenged K/T rejecters. > > Usually the memes that get tied up with so much emotion are > religious or political. Whatever the source, it is clear that a > wide variety of memes can obtain this kind of binding to emotional > areas of the brain. Are there features of plate tectonics, the > "memes about memes" and the K/T event that group them with > political or religious memes? What other memes classes have > this binding? Keith, I think you're referring to binding with sense of self-worth. Similar to social status but in this case one fears damage to one's own worth, and all that entails in terms of survival behavior. Many people feel that if their beliefs are attacked, then they are attacked. A few oddballs actually like to have their beliefs attacked, because they expect they might gain a better set of beliefs in the process. Others just enjoy the resulting competition. Most people rarely or never take a third person view of themselves and react with little no awareness of their motivations. If pressed for an explanation, they confabulate in such a way that they defend their self from (threat of) change. Although we have a greater than normal proportion of novel thinkers on this list, there's plenty of evidence here of people defending beliefs as if they were defending themselves. I suppose the evolutionary drivers for having and defending a sense of self-worth are already well known. - Jef From ben at goertzel.org Wed Feb 7 23:25:29 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:25:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings In-Reply-To: <001101c74b02$13b40090$a2971f97@archimede> References: <001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede><001801c74688$3f21e130$ed044e0c@MyComputer><20070202143527.GV21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070202175236.023a3008@satx.rr.com><20070203104859.GJ21677@leitl.org><35950269-582C-4D64-B579-644D9B2250E8@goertzel.org><003401c747bd$8f8a1210$d3064e0c@MyComputer><1A8C4CF2-8815-4CE8-B3E8-324CFD5BBA5B@goertzel.org><001901c7487d$fac14330$35074e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070204115133.021e83b0@satx.rr.com><001401c74893$27d5bda0$98921f97@archimede> <5.1.0.14.0.20070207154545.03a8e2b8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001101c74b02$13b40090$a2971f97@archimede> Message-ID: > > No, they had the theory, the QED by G.Preparata, > a bit different from what Julian Schwinger > wrote about the role of the lattice in cold fusion > http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue1/colfusthe.html Interesting! As revealed there, Nobel Laureate Julian Schwinger resigned from the American Physical Society due to their unethical and unscientific treatment of cold fusion research... -- Ben From ben at goertzel.org Wed Feb 7 23:30:37 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 18:30:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <39E0FB11-360B-41EA-82A1-B4279D5976EB@goertzel.org> > I think there are many theories, but not enough experiments to validate or refute them. Nobelist Julian Schwinger posed one sketch of a theory in this lecture http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue1/colfusthe.html but I'm sure there are more recent ideas... Ben > The problem with CF or whatever it is, is that (as far as I know) > nobody > has a theory about why this should occur. Responding to a certain > person's > posts are a waste of time compared to even the wildest speculations > you can > think of to account for the observations and suggestions on ways to > test them. > > I have a few ideas. Is there any central place where researchers > fish for > ideas? > > Keith > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Feb 7 23:44:43 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:44:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <39E0FB11-360B-41EA-82A1-B4279D5976EB@goertzel.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <39E0FB11-360B-41EA-82A1-B4279D5976EB@goertzel.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207174220.0225dde8@satx.rr.com> At 06:30 PM 2/7/2007 -0500, Ben wrote: >I think there are many theories, but not enough experiments to >validate or refute them. > >Nobelist Julian Schwinger posed one sketch of a theory in this lecture > >http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue1/colfusthe.html Here's a telling quote: < Critics should learn to operate within the bounds of sanity. My first attempt at publication, for the record, was a total disaster. "Cold Fusion: A Hypothesis" was written to suggest several critical experiments, which is the function of hypothesis. The masked reviewers, to a person, ignored that, and complained that I had not proved the underlying assumptions. Has the knowledge that physics is an experimental science been totally lost? The paper was submitted, in August 1989, to Physical Review Letters. I anticipated that PRL would have some difficulty with what had become a very controversial subject, but I felt an obligation to give them the first chance. What I had not expected?as I wrote in my subsequent letter of resignation from the American Physical Society?was contempt.> Everyone should bear in mind that Schwinger is right up there with Feynman. It's not too hard to suspect that something *sociological* is at work here. Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Feb 7 23:45:21 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:45:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Keith Henson [Taken into Custody] (3) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207184512.03b76a20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 01:16 PM 2/3/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Please disregard this email. I totally missed this. I was thinking about >something else and didn't realize that this was THE Keith Henson. LOL! I am not sure the world would put up with more than one of me. >Bad duh >moment. That goes to show you what happens when you have children. lol Five girls myself. Best wishes, Keith Henson PS. Even a summery of this nonsense is of ridiculous length. The Wikipedia page might be a place to start. snip From ben at goertzel.org Thu Feb 8 00:19:41 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 19:19:41 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207174220.0225dde8@satx.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <39E0FB11-360B-41EA-82A1-B4279D5976EB@goertzel.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070207174220.0225dde8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <9511B693-C61B-4F78-997F-64E330788CDB@goertzel.org> From the wikipedia page on Schwinger: " After 1989 Schwinger took a keen interest in the research of low- energy nuclear fusion reactions (AKA cold fusion). He wrote eight theory papers about it, including these [1] [2]. He resigned from the American Physical Society after their refusal to publish his papers. He felt that cold fusion research was being suppressed and academic freedom violated. He wrote: "The pressure for conformity is enormous. I have experienced it in editors? rejection of submitted papers, based on venomous criticism of anonymous referees. The replacement of impartial reviewing by censorship will be the death of science." " Unfortunately, the guy died in 1994. If not for the goddamn ongoing blight of involuntary death, we would probably have a theory of cold fusion by now, and maybe Schwinger would have a second Nobel Prize for it ;-) -- Ben On Feb 7, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 06:30 PM 2/7/2007 -0500, Ben wrote: > >> I think there are many theories, but not enough experiments to >> validate or refute them. >> >> Nobelist Julian Schwinger posed one sketch of a theory in this >> lecture >> >> http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue1/colfusthe.html > > Here's a telling quote: > > < Critics should learn to operate within the bounds of sanity. > > My first attempt at publication, for the record, > was a total disaster. "Cold Fusion: A Hypothesis" > was written to suggest several critical > experiments, which is the function of hypothesis. > The masked reviewers, to a person, ignored that, > and complained that I had not proved the > underlying assumptions. Has the knowledge that > physics is an experimental science been totally lost? > > The paper was submitted, in August 1989, to > Physical Review Letters. I anticipated that PRL > would have some difficulty with what had become a > very controversial subject, but I felt an > obligation to give them the first chance. What I > had not expected?as I wrote in my subsequent > letter of resignation from the American Physical Society?was > contempt.> > > Everyone should bear in mind that Schwinger is > right up there with Feynman. It's not too hard to > suspect that something *sociological* is at work here. > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From nanogirl at halcyon.com Thu Feb 8 01:02:43 2007 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 17:02:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Keith Henson [Taken into Custody] (3) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207184512.03b76a20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <004f01c74b1c$fc8c2940$0200a8c0@Nano> Hello Keith! So good to have you here among us. You sound like you are really holding up quite well. We have all been thinking of you and will continue to support you through all time. : ) Gina "Nanogirl" Miller http://nanogirl.com/keith/keithbig.gif ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Henson To: ExI chat list Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:45 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] The Keith Henson [Taken into Custody] (3) At 01:16 PM 2/3/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Please disregard this email. I totally missed this. I was thinking about >something else and didn't realize that this was THE Keith Henson. LOL! I am not sure the world would put up with more than one of me. >Bad duh >moment. That goes to show you what happens when you have children. lol Five girls myself. Best wishes, Keith Henson PS. Even a summery of this nonsense is of ridiculous length. The Wikipedia page might be a place to start. snip _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070207/f1cfb774/attachment.html From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 8 02:34:45 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 20:34:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] iDarwin Award winners Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207203412.022fa1f8@satx.rr.com> NEW YORK (Reuters) - New Yorkers who blithely cross the street listening to an iPod or talking on a cell phone could soon face a $100 fine. New York State Sen. Carl Kruger says three pedestrians in his Brooklyn district have been killed since September upon stepping into traffic while distracted by an electronic device. In one case bystanders screamed "watch out" to no avail. From moses2k at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 04:25:35 2007 From: moses2k at gmail.com (Chris Petersen) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 22:25:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" In-Reply-To: <001a01c74a95$f3b50da0$640fa8c0@kevin> References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> <089901c74a67$01837db0$640fa8c0@kevin> <20070207082048.GE21677@leitl.org> <001a01c74a95$f3b50da0$640fa8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <3aff9e290702072025h2726c733rb7440238bde9d98@mail.gmail.com> Regarding the Toy Story claim, yes, real-time ray-tracing has become more plausible; it also scales fairly well in relation to scene complexity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendering_%28computer_graphics%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytracing Re: 'interactive movies', they're called 'adventure games' (Zork, Myst, Monkey Island, etc.). They are the computer game of choice for choosy computer gamers. Lumus & Mirage Innovations have 'next-gen' HMD projects supposedly nearing production. http://www.lumusvision.com/ http://www.mirageinnovations.com/ Olfactory stimulation, while low-bandwidth, can, of course, be strongly evocative. kevin, some current PDA/smartphones have mixed cell/wifi/bluetooth capabilities as well as media & web browsing. For instance: http://www.gizmos2go.com/xcart/product.php?productid=5413&cat=737&page=1 Cell service prices are still exorbitant though. :) I haven't heard much about novel input projects on the horizon, though consumer-priced mo-cap gloves seem to me the most plausible near-term item. I think, however, the greatest area for improvement is in AI, both for higher-level, more abstract, intelligent software design, and for more impressive game-character interactivity. -Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070207/dc4cfe5a/attachment.html From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 8 04:39:23 2007 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:39:23 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital In-Reply-To: <380-2200722621349718@M2W034.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <200702080449.l184nqA0007616@andromeda.ziaspace.com> I have a notion that might explain the bizarre behavior of the young woman who managed to make NASAs elite astronaut corps, earn a master's degree and make the rank of captain in the US Navy. Brain tumor? spike From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Feb 8 04:57:46 2007 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:57:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" In-Reply-To: <088001c74a66$4b5e2850$640fa8c0@kevin> References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> <62c14240702061824p710173bfoc7580b584a4e9e31@mail.gmail.com> <088001c74a66$4b5e2850$640fa8c0@kevin> Message-ID: <62c14240702072057g17be6025j5e7da0ed68ed2b7d@mail.gmail.com> On 2/6/07, kevinfreels.com wrote: > I disagree here. the "Choose your own adventure" stories never took over the > literary world and I doubt that they will take over film either. Movies are > a cultural thing. There's a certain bond there when I say to a total > stranger "If she weighs as much as a duck...." and they finish with "she's a > witch!", or when someone says to me "Surely you can't be serious" and I > reply "I am serious....and don't call me Shirley." > Linear stories present an opportunity for people to share fictitious > experiences. Telling my daughter to remember what happened to the boy who > cried wolf only allows me to pass down the message if the ending of the > story were the same for me as it is for her. Agreed. Ever been to a Rocky Horror Picture Show? 'more than once? I'm not saying that can or should replace linear media, but i think something like it could become more popular. (of course, any amount of supposition is doomed to be laughably wrong, so I use the example of the choose-your-adventure as an icon to represent a group media experience) > I expect that we will soon see this in theme parks or specialized theaters > similar IMAX but I don't expect it to replace the traditional linear film. > Interesting new inventions will come around and add to it making it a > greater experience, but we live linear lives and linear stories are easiest > for us to relate to. How many applications are in your taskbar right now? Are you also listening to an iPod or radio, is the TV on in the room you are in? We are evolving into less linear and single-tasking lives all the time. I agree with your point about needing commonality in order to relate - however I think in the future we may directly realize classes of memes regardless of what characters are used to deliver them. "Oh, it's that type of story" will have us looking for a new stream long before we get to the happily ever after ending. (Does anyone still wait for websites' Flash Intro to even download, let alone play all the way through?) From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 8 05:12:03 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:12:03 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital In-Reply-To: <200702080449.l184nqA0007616@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <380-2200722621349718@M2W034.mail2web.com> <200702080449.l184nqA0007616@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207231108.0237f000@satx.rr.com> At 08:39 PM 2/7/2007 -0800, spike wrote: >Brain tumor? Cosmic ray induced, you mean? (I've been surprised there isn't more of it... or is there?) Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Feb 8 05:49:51 2007 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:49:51 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207231108.0237f000@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200702080602.l18621ag012461@andromeda.ziaspace.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital > > At 08:39 PM 2/7/2007 -0800, spike wrote: > > >Brain tumor? > > Cosmic ray induced, you mean? (I've been surprised there isn't more > of it... or is there?) > > Damien Broderick Ja. The risk is apparently increased, altho the sample size of all astronuats is still too small to make conclusions. I would rather think her bizarre wackiness is caused by a tumor than to worry that any one of us could flip out at any time over that endorphin surge we call love. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Feb 8 06:11:05 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:11:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital In-Reply-To: <200702080602.l18621ag012461@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207231108.0237f000@satx.rr.com> <200702080602.l18621ag012461@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208001016.022da600@satx.rr.com> At 09:49 PM 2/7/2007 -0800, spike wrote: >I would rather think her bizarre wackiness is caused by a tumor than to >worry that any one of us could flip out at any time over that endorphin >surge we call love. Ha! Typical *NT*! From scerir at libero.it Thu Feb 8 07:20:23 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:20:23 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><39E0FB11-360B-41EA-82A1-B4279D5976EB@goertzel.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070207174220.0225dde8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003001c74b51$99b9bff0$01b81f97@archimede> Damien Broderick: Everyone should bear in mind that Schwinger is right up there with Feynman. It's not too hard to suspect that something *sociological* is at work here. # Read also the last two pages of this paper http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0303078 written by Mario Rabinowitz, who also coauthored a famous paper, a bit critical on the possibility of cold fusion, published in Int.J.Theor.Phys. (1994) http://www.arxiv.org/abs/nucl-th/0303057 . From asa at nada.kth.se Thu Feb 8 10:48:50 2007 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:48:50 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208001016.022da600@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207231108.0237f000@satx.rr.com> <200702080602.l18621ag012461@andromeda.ziaspace.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070208001016.022da600@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <1576.163.1.72.81.1170931730.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 09:49 PM 2/7/2007 -0800, spike wrote: > >>I would rather think her bizarre wackiness is caused by a tumor than to >>worry that any one of us could flip out at any time over that endorphin >>surge we call love. > > Ha! Typical *NT*! I must admit that my first reaction too was to think of brain tumors. *NT* as charged. The whole affair is so interesting because it clashes with Nasa's "No sex please" policy: the official story is that there has never been any sex on any space mission ever. Astronauts are heroes, space is a place for manifest destiny or pure science. As soon as people join a mission they leave out all human baggage and become pure Right Stuff. Perhaps rational given that they are tax funded and doesn't dare to irritate their puritan constituents, but rather hard to maintain now. In a few years some minor celebrity will be boasting in all media that they were first with sex in space on a Virgin Galactic flight. -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Feb 8 14:12:49 2007 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:12:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital In-Reply-To: <200702080449.l184nqA0007616@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <380-2200722621349718@M2W034.mail2web.com> <200702080449.l184nqA0007616@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <40818.72.236.103.13.1170943969.squirrel@main.nc.us> > > > I have a notion that might explain the bizarre behavior of the young woman > who managed to make NASAs elite astronaut corps, earn a master's degree and > make the rank of captain in the US Navy. Brain tumor? > That was my thought, as we had someone in our area who went bonkers all of a sudden and that's exactly what it was! Regards, MB From jonkc at att.net Thu Feb 8 18:43:35 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:43:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <010801c74bb1$15868320$2f054e0c@MyComputer> "Keith Henson" > The problem with CF or whatever it is, is that (as far as I know) nobody > has a theory about why this should occur. No, that is not the problem. High Temperature Superconductors were discovered about the same time cold fusion was "discovered". At the time there was not a theory to explain either phenomenon and the same is true today, but today you could not find a scientist who thinks High Temperature Superconductors do not exist. > places like Stanford and the U of Hawaii are some I remember. And it what rag were those remarkable results published it? Or was it just a website? > I remember with near horror a time when a very senior scientist (not in > geology) went off on a disjointed emotional rant that was scary to > behold. (He was shaking with rage.) I was reading *his* copy of >_Scientific American_ at his house and made some innocent comment > about an article on plate tectonics. Clark's "BULLSHIT" doesn't compare You are quire correct, it does not compare. Plate tectonics was a theory and until the mid 60's the evidence for it really wasn't very good. Nevertheless it would have been inappropriate to go into a rant about it before that time because a theory is enormously more difficult to disprove than a experimental result. If they had said I believe someday a way will be found to fuse hydrogen at room temperature they might be wrong but they wouldn't be talking bullshit; but whenever someone on this list confidently says people have been routinely doing it for 17 years I'm going to label that remark for what it is, BULLSHIT. I'm going to repeat something I've said twice before, a simple very well publicized experiment that has been imposable to be confirmed for 17 years would be UNIQUE in the history of science. Keith let's make a friendly little wager, if a pro cold fusion article (not counting Muon-catalyzed cold fusion) appears in Nature or Science or Physical Review Letters in the next year I will send you one dollar, if it doesn't appear you will send me one dollar. I would rate the possibility of seeing pro cold fusion about as likely as seeing a pro Scientology article. Why? Because they are both BULLSHIT! John K Clark From extropy at unreasonable.com Thu Feb 8 20:19:48 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 15:19:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Richard Feynman Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070208150424.0911c7a0@unreasonable.com> The February issue of Physics Today is out, with a memoir of Feynman from a close friend (Theodore Welton), mostly of their days as MIT students and working together at Los Alamos. Also, an essay on supercooled glass, many letters about the teaching of evolution, a news story on microwave-invisible materials, and articles on Casimir forces and the elasticity of thin plates. http://www.physicstoday.org/ or your local library. -- David Lubkin. From hkhenson at rogers.com Thu Feb 8 21:20:37 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:20:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <010801c74bb1$15868320$2f054e0c@MyComputer> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 01:43 PM 2/8/2007 -0500, John wrote: >"Keith Henson" > > > The problem with CF or whatever it is, is that (as far as I know) nobody > > has a theory about why this should occur. > >No, that is not the problem. High Temperature Superconductors were >discovered about the same time cold fusion was "discovered". At the time >there was not a theory to explain either phenomenon There might not be a really detailed theory, but superconducting was fairly well understood. (BCS model as I remember.) >and the same is true >today, but today you could not find a scientist who thinks High Temperature >Superconductors do not exist. It's quick and easy to replicate HTS. Heck, you can do it in a few hours. If HTS had taken hundreds of hours to anneal and still been intermittent I doubt it would have faired any better. > > places like Stanford and the U of Hawaii are some I remember. > >And it what rag were those remarkable results published it? Or was it just a >website? That long ago? What I saw were research preprints that went into details and bitched about how hard it was to get repeatable results, but when they got a cell that decided to turn on, there was no question about it. > > I remember with near horror a time when a very senior scientist (not in > > geology) went off on a disjointed emotional rant that was scary to > > behold. (He was shaking with rage.) I was reading *his* copy of > >_Scientific American_ at his house and made some innocent comment > > about an article on plate tectonics. Clark's "BULLSHIT" doesn't compare > >You are quire correct, it does not compare. You missed the point. I was comparing *emotional* levels between you and this senior scientist. But then maybe you are shaking with rage and ranting while you write your posts. If so, you do compare and I apologize for belittling your intensity. >Plate tectonics was a theory and >until the mid 60's the evidence for it really wasn't very good. This was at mid to late 70s. It's been 30 years now. Still, it would not surprise me one bit to get the same reaction now. Not that I would try it, one of those experiences was more than enough. >Nevertheless >it would have been inappropriate to go into a rant about it snip >I would rate the possibility of seeing pro cold fusion about as likely as >seeing a pro Scientology article. Why? Because they are both BULLSHIT! You are sadly misinformed. There are thousands of pro scientology articles. Most have been written by scientologists, but a significant number were written by outsiders with poor critical thinking skills who wrote about scientology based on what they were told. Keith Henson From mmbutler at gmail.com Fri Feb 9 00:17:04 2007 From: mmbutler at gmail.com (Michael M. Butler) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:17:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] iDarwin Award winners In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207203412.022fa1f8@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070207203412.022fa1f8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7d79ed890702081617m72556058jb7ea34ade7da2c2c@mail.gmail.com> When the Sony Walkman was first introduced, I and several acquaintances started calling them "'Mug Me' Boxes" due to the expected loss of situational awareness. I think Phil Foglio used the term in one panel of a cartoon. Nothing new under the sun. Except the law (sigh). On 2/7/07, Damien Broderick wrote: > > NEW YORK (Reuters) - New Yorkers who blithely cross the street > listening to an iPod or talking on a cell phone could soon face a $100 fine. > > New York State Sen. Carl Kruger says three pedestrians in his > Brooklyn district have been killed since September upon stepping into > traffic while distracted by an electronic device. In one case > bystanders screamed "watch out" to no avail. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Michael M. Butler : m m b u t l e r ( a t ) g m a i l . c o m 'Piss off, you son of a bitch. Everything above where that plane hit is going to collapse, and it's going to take the whole building with it. I'm getting my people the fuck out of here." -- Rick Rescorla (R.I.P.), cell phone call, 9/11/2001 From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 9 03:33:35 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:33:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <010801c74bb1$15868320$2f054e0c@MyComputer> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <010801c74bb1$15868320$2f054e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070208212915.0222efa8@satx.rr.com> At 01:43 PM 2/8/2007 -0500, JKC wrote: >I would rate the possibility of seeing pro cold fusion about as likely as >seeing a pro Scientology article. Why? Because they are both BULLSHIT! Suppose Feynman had published the 8 CF papers, and the opinions, his co-Nobelist Schwinger published. Would that have modified your assessment? Or are you confident Schwinger must have been a senile old BULLSHIT ARTIST precisely because he *did* publish those papers? Damien Broderick From seanl at literati.org Wed Feb 7 01:17:19 2007 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean Lynch) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:17:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gaming: ? re 2010 - 2030 "GameChangers" In-Reply-To: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> References: <380-220072262143420@M2W031.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <45C9289F.3080403@literati.org> nvitamore at austin.rr.com wrote: > Does anyone have an opinion of what would be the top three "GameChangers"* > coming from 2010 to 2030 in the area of interactive media and entertainment > from a consumer point of view? > > *GameChanger: Its "mission is to deliver new business opportunities ? > specifically, breakthrough or "game-changing" opportunities. ... > GameChanger trades in a market for ideas, rewarding innovators with a > variety of remuneration schemes, should their idea become a basis for a > commercial venture. However, the GameChanger experience also strongly > suggests that people compete for a chance to have their personal vision > impact the corporate future." > This is probably too near-term for what you want, but I think that what's currently called "user-provided content" or "consumer-created content" or whatever is going to change the game much more than it already has. "Games" like Second Life could potentially become far more popular than World of Warcraft when you consider how inefficient the whole setup of Second Life currently is for content creation and how much is created there even with the rough tools currently available; the scripting language for SL was created in a single day! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 250 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070206/0eddd12f/attachment.bin From femmechakra at yahoo.ca Fri Feb 9 02:09:48 2007 From: femmechakra at yahoo.ca (Anna Taylor) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:09:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Questionnaire on senses Message-ID: <503661.17726.qm@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anna Taylor wrote: > Anders Sandberg, Sat Jan 27 15:33:47 UTC 2007 wrote: > >>Smells can rather directly evoke memories and >>emotions. They get directly integrated in a general >>context in the hippocampal system rather than treated >>as elements to be analysed and then put together. >Anna Taylor wrote: > That's odd I always believed that touch and taste > where elements that where analysed and then put > together while, sight, smell and hearing could > directly evoke memories and emotions. > Could you please forward me some links, I'd be very > interested in reading about it. >>Well, I have always heard this as the standard view >>among neuroscientists. At least my memory research >>colleagues (who mess around with related parts of >>the brain) never doubted it, and half of all >>textbooks of memory start with Proust's Madeleine->>cookie quote. My apology Anders. I wasn't very clear with that response. From what I have read, I believed that along side of smell, that sight and hearing could also evoke memories and emotion. Thank you (and Natasha) for the links. I may not have understood properly so I appreciate the right direction. Anna:) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fortean1 at mindspring.com Fri Feb 9 07:13:10 2007 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry Colvin) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 02:13:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: Emotional memes, was Elvis Sightings //cold fusion +// Message-ID: <25741368.1171005191397.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Forwarded Message----- > >On Feb 08, 2007, at 19:02:44, Leonard R. Cleavelin wrote: > >> Is the whole meme thang really advanced enough to call it a >> "theory", in the strict scientific sense? > >I think so. I suspect Dennett might, as well, but, then, the actual >practice of developing methodologies for experimentation never >happened in memetics- it has failed as a science- possibly because >its a theory of how things are, not how they do, and mostly because >the whole endeavor was just swallowed up by socio-biology before it >had a chance to split off. > >The 'meme' as the quanta of culture is a valid term. It follows >darwinian processes, and is a good explanation for why culture is >both inside and outside of us. There is no other, IMHO, good theory >about artifacts and their use in understanding, performing, and >continuing cultures. > >But it's all too general, too oblique, and too wrapped up in human >behavior to truly define. > >I gave it what I consider a good shot, even developing my own model >and usage of 'meme'- but, nothing is really out there except the term >itself. > >Keith Henson, the currently exiled scientology debunker, was one of >the first 'memeticists'. Dawkins came on with an offhand comment >about how culture needs a 'gene', and the gates were open. Dennett >puts a mechanism in the mind for memes. > >There are basically two camps of memeticists- mental and physical. >Some hold that memes are active mental entities and are somehow >'passed' from brain to brain. Others hold that there is nothing >unique about what happens in the brain, and that memes are physical >things created by cultural behaviors. > >My own theory is that memes are the very performances of culture >themselves- constantly in flux, and constantly enforcing their own >continuance. Not either mental or physical, but the very motions in >present time of human behaviors within cultures, as separate from >those innate behaviors we as a species cannot eradicate or escape, >except through genetic change. > >The (imagined) divide between 'cultural' behavior and 'genetic' >behavior is the schism that memes depend upon. > >There is good argument to deny this schism, and thus deny any >separate power to culture at all. > >Difficult fence to straddle, difficult fence to get off. > >I suspect a lot of critics of memetics just said, who cares? > >The only official journal of memetics is defunct, but, see http:// >cfpm.org/jom-emit/overview.html for a brief synopsis of what was. > >- Wade Terry W. Colvin Sierra Vista, Arizona From asa at nada.kth.se Fri Feb 9 11:42:49 2007 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:42:49 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Questionnaire on senses In-Reply-To: <503661.17726.qm@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <503661.17726.qm@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <62391.86.151.138.206.1171021369.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Anna Taylor wrote: > My apology Anders. I wasn't very clear with that > response. From what I have read, I believed that > along side of smell, that sight and hearing could also > evoke memories and emotion. Well, *obviously* all senses can evoke memories and emotion. It would actually be a rather strange sense if a stimuli could not do it. It is just that olfaction is directly connected to the the brain systems that have developed emotional and memory functions. It is not hard to understand the association if you think about how rats experience the world (and our ancestors were after all rat-like creatures). To a rat places are mainly constellations of smells, and this appears to be how places are represented in the hippocampus: conjunctions of smells, and some other sensory information. -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From jonkc at att.net Fri Feb 9 18:29:50 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:29:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> "Keith Henson" > There might not be a really detailed theory, but superconducting > was fairly well understood. (BCS model as I remember.) Low temperature superconductors are fairly well understood, but one of the few things known about high temperature superconductors is that it must work by a different mechanism. We didn't understand it then we don't understand it now, but unlike cold fusion everybody believes it's real. When Roentgen won the very first Noble Prize in Physics more than a century ago for discovering X rays nobody including Roentgen knew what in hell they were or how they worked (that's why he called them X rays) but every Physicist alive believed they existed because he used then to see the bones in his wife's hand. Where are cold fusion's bones? > It's quick and easy to replicate HTS. You need to mix exotic rare earths in precise percentages in just the right way, with great care taken not to include any impurities, then you have to cool it down to liquid nitrogen temperatures, then you have to measure that it really is superconducting. That doesn't sound enormously easier than a electrolysis experiment. > If HTS had taken hundreds of hours to anneal and > still been intermittent I doubt it would have faired any better. Was it harder than determining that the universe is accelerating? Was if it harder than building a microscope that can see atoms? Was it harder than detecting a neutrino after it went through the entire Earth and then weighing it? Is that stupid heat really that illusive? Well to be honest maybe it is that illusive, because as soon as a real scientist fails to see it the cold fusion people say, oh I forgot to tell you for it to work you also need to do this and that, and when that also doesn't work they say oh I forgot to tell you for it to work you must also do that and this, and when that fails to work.... > This was at mid to late 70s. If he was scoffing at continental drift in the late 70's then the man was a fool. I am not a fool. But again I want to emphasize the enormous difference between having a theory and claiming a experimental result. Disproving one is easy, the other is not. > It's been 30 years now. Still, it would not > surprise me one bit to get the same reaction now. Neither would I, among Scientologists and Christian fundamentalists; but among scientific skeptics they have all either changed their minds about continental drift, died, or gotten Alzheimer's disease by now. > There are thousands of pro scientology articles. Well sure there are, and there are thousands of pro cold fusion articles, but none of them are in Nature or Science or Physical Review Letters, or any journal a real scientist could cite without acute embarrassment. So Keith, will cold fusion become mainstream in the next year or not, I mean, the mainstream can't ALWAYS be wrong, if the phenomena is real they're bound to catch on sooner or later, it's flabbergasting they've managed to avoid it for 17 years. Can this ridiculous state of affairs really continue for another year? I say it can because the phenomenon is not real, so one year from now (or 10 or 100) we will be in exactly precisely the same situation, just like ESP. John K Clark From ben at goertzel.org Fri Feb 9 18:39:22 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:39:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: > > Well sure there are, and there are thousands of pro cold fusion > articles, > but none of them are in Nature or Science or Physical Review > Letters, or any > journal a real scientist could cite without acute embarrassment. > That is BS, there have been CF articles published in respected journals, even though not in any of the absolute most highly rated ones like the once you cite... But, the political issues regarding these top journals rejecting CF papers have been well-discussed already, e.g. by Nobelist Schwinger... I.e., it's not that each individual CF paper has been individually reviewed carefully and found wanting. Rather, at a certain point these journals decided to reject all CF papers as a matter of policy, and then proceeded to follow the policy in spite of the contents of future papers in the domain.... A bad sort of policy, IMO But thanks to the Net we can find things like Schwinger's views online, even if the top journals don't want to publish them... > So Keith, will cold fusion become mainstream in the next year or not, I doubt it. But I bet it will become mainstream in the next 20 years, and quite plausibly the next 5 or 10... > I > mean, the mainstream can't ALWAYS be wrong, I agree, they are usually right. But not always. > if the phenomena is real they're > bound to catch on sooner or later, Agree, but in this case it's taking a surprisingly long time... > it's flabbergasting they've managed to > avoid it for 17 years. I do find it disturbing, but it's not the MOST disturbing aspect of human irrationality I've come across... -- Ben From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 9 19:11:11 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:11:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> At 01:39 PM 2/9/2007 -0500, Ben wrote in reply to John Clark: > > if the phenomena is real they're > > bound to catch on sooner or later, > >Agree, but in this case it's taking a surprisingly long time... It's a rachet. Once the formal decision has been taken to ban papers on a topic, new information gets locked out of the communal flow of discourse *and its very absence then serves as "proof" that there's nothing new to investigate*. As Ben notes, some of the less august journals do open the gates briefly now and then, and this keeps things ticking over a little. This is exactly what's happened with psi research (which John uses as his standard example of indisputable bullshit). From time to time heavy-duty psychology journals publish papers, pro and con, such as those by Cornell University psychology professor Daryl Bem in Psychological Bulletin and Behavioral and Brain Sciences. Journals at that level do not, I observe, publish research papers into Tooth Fairy Electrodynamics. > > it's flabbergasting they've managed to > > avoid it for 17 years. >I do find it disturbing, but it's not the MOST disturbing aspect of >human irrationality I've come across... Here's another instance, also drawn from psi research. Bear in mind that I have considerable regard for Dan Dennett, but I find this anecdote as revealing as John's recent outbursts. A friend, a senior psi researcher, told me: Damien Broderick From eugen at leitl.org Fri Feb 9 19:53:02 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:53:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org> On Fri, Feb 09, 2007 at 01:11:11PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > It's a rachet. Once the formal decision has been taken to ban papers > on a topic, new information gets locked out of the communal flow of > discourse *and its very absence then serves as "proof" that there's If I had kW/cm^3 power densities (reproduced 11 times in the same apparatus, until they got bored with it, and dismantled it, yeah, sure) I wouldn't bother with communal flow of discourse. I would be SELLING IT, and let the rest of them high-falutin' Nature hoitytoities suffer the indignity of publishing papers derived from reverse-engineered MY free-energy devices bought from WalMart. I'm amazed y'all so gullible. Did you read the papers from the site Ben plugged? I've never read more sad crap in my life. The italian ones postulating a nuclear source for a blown up water electrolytic cell takes the cake. It's a children's experiment, for god's sake. Even if one's clueless about energy content of palladium hydride in air, surely one must have heard about knallgas? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070209/6fc8dc58/attachment-0001.bin From hkhenson at rogers.com Fri Feb 9 19:58:47 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 14:58:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: Emotional memes, was Elvis Sightings //cold fusion +// In-Reply-To: <25741368.1171005191397.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa. earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209145732.036b71f0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 02:13 AM 2/9/2007 -0500, you wrote: >-----Forwarded Message----- > > > >On Feb 08, 2007, at 19:02:44, Leonard R. Cleavelin wrote: > > > >> Is the whole meme thang really advanced enough to call it a > >> "theory", in the strict scientific sense? > > > >I think so. I suspect Dennett might, as well, but, then, the actual > >practice of developing methodologies for experimentation never snip Where did this come from? Mailing list? Private email? Keith Henson From scerir at libero.it Fri Feb 9 20:01:21 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:01:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] newsvine: "Sure, make me a cyborg" References: <3642969c0701282234p573141d6g59fa8e3dc8619e63@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20070129100644.04c302d8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <005301c74c85$127e0ac0$46901f97@archimede> Natasha: > How do you see the distinction > between cyborg and transhuman? There is a test, the most popular random number. Pick your favorite random number ... here http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2007/02/doesnt_anyone_know_about_onli n.php Results (humans, computers) http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2007/02/is_17_the_most_random_number. php Results (cyborgs, transhumans) - to be processed - From eugen at leitl.org Fri Feb 9 20:18:03 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:18:03 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20070209201803.GJ21677@leitl.org> On Fri, Feb 09, 2007 at 01:11:11PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > [...] Btw, when looking for palladium hydride reactions, I came across our usual suspect source http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMI/6.3.7.3.htm 6.3.7.3 Exothermal Nuclear Catalysis One solution to low nuclear reaction probability and a poor energy balance is to employ a nuclear catalyst. A number of possibilities have been investigated, as described below. In principle, the two deuterons in a deuterium molecule can spontaneously fuse to form tritium + proton or He3 + neutron, liberating 4 Mev of energy. The two electrons in the D2 molecule act as a catalyst, holding the deuterons together so they can react. According to quantum mechanics, the deuterons can tunnel toward each other through the classically forbidden region of repulsion until they get so close (~2 x 10-15 m) that the strong force dominates and fusion occurs.605 In practice the rate of this reaction is very small, ~10-74 molecule-1 sec-1.609 But if an electron of mass Me is replaced by a heavier negatively charged particle such as a muon (Mmuon ~ 207 Me), forming a muonic molecule, the required tunneling distance shortens by the ratio of the masses -- in this case, from 5 x 10-11 m to 2 x 10-13 m, making penetration of the barrier much more likely and dramatically raising the reaction rate to ~106 molecule-1 sec-1.607 Muon catalysis of the proton-deuteron reaction, initially proposed theoretically by Frank in 1947,606 was first observed experimentally in 1957 by Alvarez.604 It has since been shown to be an effective means of rapidly inducing fusion reactions in low-temperature (<1200 K) mixtures of hydrogen isotopes, with D-T reaction rates of ~109 sec-1.608,610,611 The field has had its own technical journal, Muon Catalyzed Fusion, since 1987, and there are excellent recent review articles.663,664 But muon catalysis has long been considered impractical for large-scale fusion reactors because the muon is relatively short-lived (2 microsec) and is quickly captured by a helium nucleus formed in a fusion reaction.*605 Typically the number of fusions catalyzed by a muon during its lifetime is ~150 in liquid D2/T2, but ~1000 are needed to achieve energy breakeven given the energy cost of artificial muon production.664 More than 70% of the cosmic ray flux at Earth's surface consists of positive and negative muons, but the cosmic-ray induced fusion rate is still impractically low, ~10-26 watts/micron3 in liquid deuterium targets.665 * In 1975 an even heavier negatively-charged lepton was discovered, the tauon. The internuclear tunneling distance for a hypothetical tauonic deuterium molecule (Mtauon ~ 3500 Me) is only ~10-14 m, which should catalyze fusion almost instantaneously. Unfortunately the tauon is shorter-lived than the muon (~10-11 sec), a lifetime much closer to the typical nuclear reaction time range of 10-13 - 10-21 sec. It has also been demonstrated experimentally that various changes in chemical composition, pressure, or electric fields can also act as nuclear catalysts, increasing the rates of nuclear transformations: A. Chemical Composition -- The rate of electron capture for Be7 is 0.08% greater in BeF2 than in metallic Be.390 B. Mechanical Pressure -- The electron capture (EC) decay rates of Tc99 and Ba131 are measurably altered at a pressure of 100,000 atm.612 At 230,000 atm there is a 0.35% increase in the electron density at the nucleus of the free Be atom; the observed increase in the EC decay constant of Be7 oxide with pressure is so linear that it may be used as a method of pressure measurement in diamond anvil experiments in which optical access is impossible.612 It has been suggested that very high pressures could induce fusion.609,933 One experiment in which Pd and Ti immersed in D2O were bombarded with intense ultrasound apparently produced above-background levels of He4, an expected endproduct of D-D fusion processes.1289 C. Fracture Deformations -- Fracto-fusion621 experiments have detected neutron emission when a crystal of lithium deuteride or heavy ice is mechanically fractured, believed to be the consequence of deuteron acceleration by >10 KeV electric fields generated by a propagating crack in the crystal, consistent with D-D fusion.614,620,1009 Heating, cooling, or fracturing metal specimens exposed to high-pressure D2 (e.g., deuterated titanium) frequently produces statistically significant bursts of neutrons and emission of charged particles, rf signals and photons. It is proposed that crack growth results in charge separation on the newly formed crack surfaces, accelerating D+ ions in the electric field across the crack tip to energies >10 KeV sufficient to significantly raise the D-D fusion probability.618 Neutrons are reportedly generated when fragments of titanium are crushed with steel balls in a bath of heavy water.619 It has also been speculated that the core of the spherical acoustic shock wave generated during sonoluminescence, if it remains stable to a 10-nm radius, might reach temperatures appropriate to fusion >~106 K.716,933 D. Electric Fields -- Claytor et al at Los Alamos National Laboratory passed a current of 2.5 amperes at 2000 volts through 200-micron diameter palladium wires in a glow discharge tube of D2 gas at 0.3 atm for ~100 hours apparently producing ~10 nanocuries of tritium, with great care being taken to eliminate possible sources of contamination.613 Deuterium-saturated LiTaO3 crystals in a 75 KV/cm AC field exhibit elevated neutron emission attributed to D-D fusion.2344 Wires of LiD exploded by high current pulses also emit fusion neutrons.622 E. Metallic Deuterides -- Most controversial is the speculative possibility of metallic deuteride catalyzed fusion at temperatures between 300 K?1100 K,615-617,624,740,3438 first reported (then later partially retracted!) in the years 1926-27.666 Positive results are reported for a comprehensive series of experiments conducted at SRI International for the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) during 1989-94,676,677 and for another comprehensive series of experiments conducted by the U.S. Naval Air Warfare Center at China Lake during 1989-96,1275 and U.S. patents have been issued for such devices (e.g., Patterson and Cravens, U.S. #5,607,563 on 4 March 1997). In another class of experiments [Edmund Storms, personal communication, 1996], a hydrogenophilic metal such as palladium is loaded with deuterium at effective pressures ~10-100 atm, giving molecular loadings of D/Pd = 85%-95%. Palladium deuteride normally exists either as Pd2D or PdD, but it is believed that the highest loadings1610-1612 may give rise to significant concentrations of PdDx (x = 1-2), asserted to be the "nuclear active phase." Superstoichiometric palladium hydride (x = 1.33) at ~50,000 atm has been observed experimentally in X-ray diffraction studies,667 although preliminary molecular simulation studies of deuterium-entrained metal lattices have given pessimistic results.668 Upon applying a current of ~1 nanoampere/micron2 at ~1-10 volts to a superstoichiometric metallic deuteride, significant heat energy in excess of the electrical input is said to be developed as the deuterium is consumed, on the order of 106-109 watts/m3. He4 is claimed to be produced at the expected rate of ~1011 He4 atoms/sec-watt,1275 with neutrons, tritons (tritium nuclei), g-rays and X-rays missing or detected in amounts far too small to account for the excess energy, which is asserted to be evidence of a catalyzed D-D aneutronic process at work. If the results of these experiments were confirmed, it might become possible to use diamondoid pistons to maintain continuously high deuterium loadings in an active catalytic crystal and thus to develop 1-1000 pW of aneutronic thermal energy in a precisely nanomanufactured porous 1 micron3 metal-deuteride reactor with He4 (23.85 MeV) as the principal (and benign) effluent, achieving storage densities >1016 joules/m3 which would allow a completely self-contained >10 year fuel supply to be carried aboard a 10 pW nanorobot in a ~1 micron3 fuel tank. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070209/22e08e14/attachment.bin From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Feb 9 22:22:02 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 16:22:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> <20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com> At 08:53 PM 2/9/2007 +0100, Eugen wrote: >I'm amazed y'all so gullible. Did you read the papers from the site >Ben plugged? I've never read more sad crap in my life. As one cold fusion-supporting physics Nobelist commented acidly: "What do you expect from a site where submissions are unrefereed?" This is the tiresome downside of Nature and the other Power Suit Wearers refusing to let their referees look through the telescope. Damien Broderick From ben at goertzel.org Fri Feb 9 22:27:35 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Ben Goertzel) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:27:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> <20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <81ECAADA-F624-44C7-A592-4C75AD6654CA@goertzel.org> Precisely. The question is not whether there has been BS posted online about CF. Of course there has been. The question is whether there has been non-BS published about CF. And it seems to me very likely that there has been, also. In fact, you can find a bunch of BS about quantum theory online too. That BS does not invalidate the theory. -- Ben On Feb 9, 2007, at 5:22 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 08:53 PM 2/9/2007 +0100, Eugen wrote: > >> I'm amazed y'all so gullible. Did you read the papers from the site >> Ben plugged? I've never read more sad crap in my life. > > As one cold fusion-supporting physics Nobelist commented acidly: > "What do you expect from a site where submissions are unrefereed?" > This is the tiresome downside of Nature and the other Power Suit > Wearers refusing to let their referees look through the telescope. > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From extropy at unreasonable.com Fri Feb 9 22:33:27 2007 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:33:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Keith Henson [Taken into Custody] (3) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207184512.03b76a20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable. rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207184512.03b76a20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20070209172243.08f3edd0@unreasonable.com> Keith wrote: >At 01:16 PM 2/3/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > >Please disregard this email. I totally missed this. I was thinking about > >something else and didn't realize that this was THE Keith Henson. > >LOL! I am not sure the world would put up with more than one of me. Not so fast, mister! I still recall our threads in paleolithic days when there was much talk of quintillions of Keith Hensons exploring the universe until the End-of-Time party. -- David. From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Feb 10 03:08:39 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 22:08:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Keith Henson [Taken into Custody] (3) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20070209172243.08f3edd0@unreasonable.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207184512.03b76a20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable. rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070207184512.03b76a20@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070209220721.03b60e40@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 05:33 PM 2/9/2007 -0500, David wrote: >Keith wrote: > > >At 01:16 PM 2/3/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > > > >Please disregard this email. I totally missed this. I was thinking about > > >something else and didn't realize that this was THE Keith Henson. > > > >LOL! I am not sure the world would put up with more than one of me. > >Not so fast, mister! I still recall our threads in paleolithic days >when there was much talk of quintillions of Keith Hensons exploring >the universe until the End-of-Time party. Yeah, but if you remember, those were all out of the world in fact, out of the solar system. Keith From amara at amara.com Sat Feb 10 08:14:19 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:14:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP Message-ID: Keith: >I am out, not in need of more money at the moment, but keep the checkbooks >and paypal accounts handy. I thought it was very amazing for the hundreds(?) of people to donate and for ExI to raise ~$5000 for you in 3 days (while the institute is in the process of closing too.) This is the first time in 15+ years that I saw the extropians+others open their wallets in a big way to help someone. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI), Roma, ITALIA Associate Research Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Tucson From benboc at lineone.net Sat Feb 10 09:41:47 2007 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:41:47 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CD935B.1040107@lineone.net> "spike" wrote: >I have a notion that might explain the bizarre behavior of the young woman >who managed to make NASAs elite astronaut corps, earn a master's degree and >make the rank of captain in the US Navy. Brain tumor? I doubt it's necessary to invoke something like that. She might have been an astronaut, but she's still a transmonkey, just like the rest of us. Is her behaviour so bizarre? I suspect that in evolutionary psych. terms it's not. >I would rather think her bizarre wackiness is caused by a tumor than to >worry that any one of us could flip out at any time over that endorphin >surge we call love. Wishful thinking, i suspect. Not trying to harsh anyone's buzz, here, but we have to face the fact that we are still very largely the products of undirected evolution. I bet there are things that can make even you 'go apeshit', even if you wish they didn't. Anders said: >The whole affair is so interesting because it clashes with Nasa's "No sex >please" policy: the official story is that there has never been any sex on >any space mission ever. These guys are saturated with physiological monitors when they're up there, no? All the time? (I think so). So NASA would *know* without any doubt, if any orbital nookie had ever occurred. I wonder if/when some kind of freedom of information act will make their records publicly available? Should be interesting (if you are a monkey interested in such things, that is :>) So when that celeb does claim to be the first, expect some hoary old ex-NASA astronaut to pipe up "Well, actually..." And there will be evidence to back them up. ben zaiboc From russell.wallace at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 10:20:06 2007 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:20:06 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] astro lass goes orbital In-Reply-To: <45CD935B.1040107@lineone.net> References: <45CD935B.1040107@lineone.net> Message-ID: <8d71341e0702100220x28b3ef44p5426723468fd14b7@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, ben wrote: > > Not trying to harsh anyone's buzz, here, but we have to face the fact > that we are still very largely the products of undirected evolution. I > bet there are things that can make even you 'go apeshit', even if you > wish they didn't. Yeah, astronauts are fallible human beings like the rest of us. It may be a surprise that a particular person flips out like that, but it shouldn't be a surprise that nonzero percentage of any group will do it if you wait long enough. It's part of living in an imperfect world. So when that celeb does claim to be the first, expect some hoary old > ex-NASA astronaut to pipe up "Well, actually..." > Is there enough room on a spaceship for that sort of thing? I was under the impression it'd be rather like doing it on a seven-person minibus tour where you can't leave the minibus: not physically impossible, but in practice you'd probably wait until you're on the ground, off duty and in private. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070210/70bed02a/attachment.html From eugen at leitl.org Sat Feb 10 11:29:02 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:29:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> <20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20070210112901.GP21677@leitl.org> On Fri, Feb 09, 2007 at 04:22:02PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > As one cold fusion-supporting physics Nobelist commented acidly: > "What do you expect from a site where submissions are unrefereed?" But the point is that the man is completely correct. Peer-review is supposed to weed out the crap. Life is too short do dig for diamonds (which might be there) in a pile of manure. Don't you listen? The overwhelming majority of the experiments I've read (with a few exceptions) are sloppy beyond imagination, the interpretations ludicrous (something blew up, instead of suspecting the obvious (air/hydrogen explosion) they postulate a nuclear source. Instead of ruling out the problem (argon or even nitrogen is dirt cheap), they submit this to LENR-CANR, and it gets proudly published! Did any of you read the stuff on http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html ? Did you? Really? Come on, do it. Do a representative sample, skim the papers, and then come back to me whether you think these are good papers. Whether the experiments are well-planned, well-executed, and well-interpreted. These experiments are as simple as they come. Even if it's not your field you can be the judge just fine. > This is the tiresome downside of Nature and the other Power Suit > Wearers refusing to let their referees look through the telescope. Peer review starts with reading the paper, and pointing out the deficiences. If the paper looks like swiss cheese, it's sunk already. Guess what? To my untrained and unjaundiced (in fact, I'd very much wish the anomalous experiments *were* true, and if my life did run differently you might even expect to find some contributions of mine there) eye most of the papers are total steaming pile of BULLSHIT. So don't come with the usual (the establishment conspiracy), read the things yourself, do the experiments yourself, and see whether you can get those output-4-times-of-input (nevermind the kW/cm^3 power densities) claims reproduced. The papers say they are simple to reproduce. So do it, and stop calling it a conspiracy. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070210/dc4f94b1/attachment.bin From eugen at leitl.org Sat Feb 10 11:34:14 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:34:14 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <81ECAADA-F624-44C7-A592-4C75AD6654CA@goertzel.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> <20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com> <81ECAADA-F624-44C7-A592-4C75AD6654CA@goertzel.org> Message-ID: <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> On Fri, Feb 09, 2007 at 05:27:35PM -0500, Ben Goertzel wrote: > The question is not whether there has been BS posted online about > CF. Of course there has been. > > The question is whether there has been non-BS published about CF. > And it seems to me very likely that there has been, also. Don't arm-wave. Give me a couple of papers which are not BS. > In fact, you can find a bunch of BS about quantum theory online too. > That BS does not invalidate the theory. Of course they said that about spiritualists, too. Just because a few of them have been caught in the act, it doesn't mean there are no spirits. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070210/0c6bb55f/attachment.bin From estropico at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 17:18:51 2007 From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:18:51 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] ExtroBritannia's February event: the "Holborn Agenda" Message-ID: <4eaaa0d90702100918h1e8f6a70q5bd6a06e2b014c86@mail.gmail.com> The next ExtroBritannia get-together is scheduled for Saturday the 17th of Feb, 12,30pm at the Penderel's Oak, in Holborn, London. Everyone welcome. This month, we're discussing the mainstreaming of the life-extension meme, how to encourage it and what we can do to accelerate the pace of research in the area (such as Aubrey de Grey's SENS http://www.sens.org/). In other words, how do we "sell" indefinite lifespans to "the masses"? How do we lobby governmental bodies for more investment? After lunch we'll break up into small groups, in order to brainstorm on the subject. After this, we'll mix-up the groups for further brainstorming and then get back together to see what we've come up with. The goal of the exercise is to sketch the outlines of a workable plan of action: the Holborn Agenda. We will be at the Penderel's Oak from 12.30pm and will stay until late afternoon. Feel free to show up at any time. If it's your first time at an ExtroBritannia event, look out for a copy of Kurzweil's "The Age of Spiritual Machines" at our table. Here's a picture of the book's cover: http://tinyurl.com/9khnx The Penderel's Oak 283-288 High Holborn London WC1V 7HJ Tel: 0207 242 5669 Nearest tube: Holborn MAP: http://tinyurl.com/29swq --- The ExtroBritannia mailing list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extrobritannia The ExtroBritannia Blog: http://www.extrobritannia.blogspot.com ExtroBritannia is the monthly public event of the UK Transhumanist Association: http://www.transhumanist.org.uk From jonkc at att.net Sat Feb 10 17:17:23 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:17:23 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><39E0FB11-360B-41EA-82A1-B4279D5976EB@goertzel.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070207174220.0225dde8@satx.rr.com> <9511B693-C61B-4F78-997F-64E330788CDB@goertzel.org> Message-ID: <003401c74d37$60b9d540$f6074e0c@MyComputer> Speaking of BULLSHIT, on the front page of today?s New York Times there is an article about the ESP ?lab? at Princeton (PEAR). It is closing down after 28 years. One of the chief witchdoctors there is quoted as saying something that to my surprise I agree with completely: ?There is no reason to stay and generate more of the same data. If people don?t believe us after all the results we?ve produced then they never will.? More crappy data just will not help. The article also describes the joy many at the university felt about its demise and how none of the 700 full professors at Princeton had joined PEAR, and how they never got published in first rate science journals, and how they went to the National Enquire of science journals ?The Society for Scientific Exploration? a rag that is never cited by anybody worth reading. Besides ESP it also loves UFOs, spoon bending, and of course cold fusion. But that august journal does not love everything, it prints attacks on relativity and evolution. John K Clark From scerir at libero.it Sat Feb 10 17:08:26 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:08:26 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com><20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com><81ECAADA-F624-44C7-A592-4C75AD6654CA@goertzel.org> <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <000601c74d36$14b5a5d0$80bd1f97@archimede> Eugen Leitl: Give me a couple of papers which are not BS. # I'm biased, maybe, because I knew Giuliano Preparata [1][2], but the paper below seems good. (It is the only paper I've read, on CF). That is to say, the experimental part seems (to me) serious (definitely not BS), and the theoretical model seems (to me) interesting [3]. A.De Ninno, A. Frattolillo, A. Rizzo, E. del Giudice, G. Preparata "Experimental evidence of 4He production in a cold fusion experiment" RT/2002/41/FUS http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DeNinnoAexperiment.pdf www.fusione.enea.it/pubblications/TR/2002/RT-2002-41-FUS.pdf [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliano_Preparata [2] Giuliano Preparata 1942-2000 http://cerncourier.com/main/article/40/6/22 Italian theoretician Giuliano Preparata died in Frascati on 24 April after a relatively short battle against cancer. Born in Padua, he studied in Rome. After graduating in 1964 he joined Raoul Gatto's group in Florence. Later he was in the US at Princeton, Harvard and Rockefeller universities. In those years he produced excellent work on symmetries, current algebra and on the field theory approach to particle physics. After returning to Rome, he was soon called to CERN as a staff member. He was later Professor of Theoretical Physics at Bari and Milan. Preparata was a theorist of great talent, with tremendous drive and a strong personality. His most recognized contribution to particle physics is the extension of the Wilson short-distance operator expansion to the whole of the light cone, developed in collaboration with Richard Brandt in around 1970. This remains a basic theoretical tool for the understanding of inclusive electron-positron annihilation and deep inelastic lepton scattering. However, his interests were already very wide and, in the same years, he produced a well known, seminal paper on nonlinear quantum optics with Rodolfo Bonifacio. With time he progressively became critical of many steps in the construction of the Standard Model and of some parts of its foundations, such as QCD. His interests were then increasingly concentrated on different subjects, often with non-conventional approaches and opinions, such as nuclear physics, superconductivity, cold fusion and quantum gravity. He worked until the end with great energy. He was at CERN for the last time in January, when Remo Ruffini gave a presentation on their work on a possible mechanism for the production of gamma-ray bursts. [3] I mean the 'Preparata effect', a sort of Bohm-Aharonov effect, in which the e.m. (vector) potential, and not the field, acts on wavefunctions and changes the phases [4]. But the complete theoretical model (with detailed calculations predicting experimental thresholds, etc.) was published in a book, and I do not have infos about it. [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aharonov-Bohm_effect http://msc.phys.rug.nl/quantummechanics/ab.htm From scerir at libero.it Sat Feb 10 17:35:50 2007 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:35:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] qc or chimera? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer><7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com><20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org><7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com><81ECAADA-F624-44C7-A592-4C75AD6654CA@goertzel.org> <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <000f01c74d39$e892adf0$80bd1f97@archimede> quantum computer demo (announced): http://dwavesys.com/ http://dwave.wordpress.com/2007/01/19/quantum-computing-demo-announcement/ excitement: try "d-wave" "quantum computer" on Google skepticism: http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=198 http://dabacon.org/pontiff/?p=1427 From ben at goertzel.org Sat Feb 10 18:04:59 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Benjamin Goertzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:04:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> <001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> <20070209195302.GI21677@leitl.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209161813.0232af78@satx.rr.com> <81ECAADA-F624-44C7-A592-4C75AD6654CA@goertzel.org> <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <3cf171fe0702101004j46040be8x520f6d08435cff56@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Feb 09, 2007 at 05:27:35PM -0500, Ben Goertzel wrote: > > > The question is not whether there has been BS posted online about > > CF. Of course there has been. > > > > The question is whether there has been non-BS published about CF. > > And it seems to me very likely that there has been, also. > > Don't arm-wave. Give me a couple of papers which are not BS. This guy is a serious scientist, here is an interesting interview with him: http://www.newenergytimes.com/Conversations/McKubre.htm The various conclusions of the 2004 DOE CF panelists are also interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_DoE_panel_on_cold_fusion#Main_conclusions_of_the_review_by_the_panelists As for papers, here are some papers cited by the 2002 and 2004 DOE reports: Y. Arata and Y-C Zhang, "Anomalous difference between reaction energies generated within D20-cell and H20 Cell", Jpn. J. Appl. Phys 37, L1274 (1998) Iwamura, Y., M. Sakano, and T. Itoh, "Elemental Analysis of Pd Complexes: Effects of D2 Gas Permeation". Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. A, 2002. 41: p. 4642. Mizuno, T., et al., "Production of Heat During Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Japanese Journal of Applied Physics, Vol. 39 p. 6055, (2000) M.H. Miles et al., "Correlation of excess power and helium production during D2O and H20 electrolysis using Palladium cathodes", J. Electroanal. Chem. 346 (1993) 99 B.F. Bush et al, "Helium production during the electrolysis of D20 in cold fusion", J. Electroanal. Chem. 346 (1993) 99 Hagelstein P. et al., "New physical effects in metal deuterides", Appendix C. submitted to the 2004 DoE panel on cold fusion -- Ben From eugen at leitl.org Sat Feb 10 18:20:45 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:20:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <000601c74d36$14b5a5d0$80bd1f97@archimede> References: <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> <000601c74d36$14b5a5d0$80bd1f97@archimede> Message-ID: <20070210182045.GF21677@leitl.org> On Sat, Feb 10, 2007 at 06:08:26PM +0100, scerir wrote: > # I'm biased, maybe, because I knew > Giuliano Preparata [1][2], but the > paper below seems good. (It is the > only paper I've read, on CF). Superficially, it's not a bad paper at all. One thing which immediately springs to mind: I don't see a control experiment with light water mentioned anywhere. Also, loading of Pd by hydrogen (or deuterium) produces cracks. I don't see thinning of the electrode and fusing the result by current ruled out anywhere in the paper. Isolated, this is not at all damning. However, the cumulated effect of other papers with sloppy design and irreproducibility needs to be accounted. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070210/b9d26c26/attachment.bin From ben at goertzel.org Sat Feb 10 18:31:45 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Benjamin Goertzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:31:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <20070210182045.GF21677@leitl.org> References: <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> <000601c74d36$14b5a5d0$80bd1f97@archimede> <20070210182045.GF21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <3cf171fe0702101031y61274711hde9a72a2eb2e31ba@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/07, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sat, Feb 10, 2007 at 06:08:26PM +0100, scerir wrote: > > > # I'm biased, maybe, because I knew > > Giuliano Preparata [1][2], but the > > paper below seems good. (It is the > > only paper I've read, on CF). > > Superficially, it's not a bad paper at all. > One thing which immediately springs to mind: > I don't see a control experiment with light > water mentioned anywhere. There are other papers presenting such comparisons however, e.g. Y. Arata and Y-C Zhang, "Anomalous difference between reaction energies generated within D20-cell and H20 Cell", Jpn. J. Appl. Phys 37, L1274 (1998) From eugen at leitl.org Sat Feb 10 18:49:54 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:49:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <3cf171fe0702101031y61274711hde9a72a2eb2e31ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> <000601c74d36$14b5a5d0$80bd1f97@archimede> <20070210182045.GF21677@leitl.org> <3cf171fe0702101031y61274711hde9a72a2eb2e31ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070210184954.GI21677@leitl.org> On Sat, Feb 10, 2007 at 01:31:45PM -0500, Benjamin Goertzel wrote: > There are other papers presenting such comparisons however, e.g. The point is that the experimenters didn't seem to have ran such a control in their own setup. If true, this is a cardinal mistake. Completely inexcusable. You simply Don't Do It. Controls in other setups don't count as far as this particular paper is concerned, because whatever dirt effects operate here don't operate in other setups. > Y. Arata and Y-C Zhang, "Anomalous difference between reaction > energies generated within D20-cell and H20 Cell", Jpn. J. Appl. Phys > 37, L1274 (1998) Have you read it? I don't have access to most journals but for private subscriptions, so if anyone can send me that paper I'd be very thankful. I wish I had also more time to write down what my particular beef with LENR-CANR as a whole is. (Mostly, is that this whole body of claims taken together is mutually inconsistent. It stinks). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070210/307dfc10/attachment.bin From jonkc at att.net Sat Feb 10 18:37:26 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:37:26 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070207171840.02a09510@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><5.1.0.14.0.20070208155856.03a2a8d0@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com><001401c74c78$802ae5f0$c1084e0c@MyComputer> <7.0.1.0.2.20070209125326.04a348e0@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <009101c74d42$e6561550$f6074e0c@MyComputer> "Damien Broderick" Wrote: >From time to time heavy-duty psychology journals > publish papers, pro and con [about Psi] , such as those > by Cornell University psychology professor Daryl Bem > in Psychological Bulletin and Behavioral and Brain > Sciences. Journals at that level do not, I observe, publish > research papers into Tooth Fairy Electrodynamics. Behavioral and Brain Sciences? Psychological Bulletin? I confess I've never heard of them, but maybe that was just my ignorance, so I looked up the top 10 most cited (respected) journals in the field of Neuroscience & Behavior and this is what I got: 1 Nature 2 Science 3 Neuron 4 Nature Neuroscience 5 PNAS 6 Journal of Neuroscience 7 Annals of Neurology 8 Brain 9 Biological Psychiatry 10 Cerebral Cortex Dear me your journals don't seem to be there, they can't be all that heavy duty. But maybe they are on the list of overall most cited journals. 1 Journal of Biological Chemistry 2 Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 3 Nature 4 Science 5 Physical Review Letters 6 Cell 7 J. American Chemical Society 8 Physical Review 9 Journal of Immunology 10 New England Journal of Medicine Not there either. Top 10 Physics journals maybe? 1 Science 2 Nature 3 Physical Review Letters 4 Nuclear Physics 5 PNAS 6 Physics Letters 7 Physical Review D 8 Europ. Physical J. C 9 Applied Physics Letters 10 Nuclear Fusion Nope. How about Chemistry? 1 Nature 2 Science 3 PNAS 4 Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. 5 J. Amer. Chem. Soc. 6 Analytical Chemistry 7 J. Medicinal Chemistry 8 Electrophoresis 9 Chemistry-European J. 10 J. Combinatorial Chem. I still don't see Behavioral and Brain Sciences or Psychological Bulletin, but let me know when any of the above journals publishes something about ESP or cold fusion. John K Clark From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Feb 10 19:00:00 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:00:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070210113546.03a66e28@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 09:14 AM 2/10/2007 +0100, Amara wrote: >Keith: > >I am out, not in need of more money at the moment, but keep the checkbooks > >and paypal accounts handy. > >I thought it was very amazing for the hundreds(?) of people to donate and >for ExI to raise ~$5000 for you in 3 days (while the institute is in >the process of closing too.) This is the first time in 15+ years that I saw >the extropians+others open their wallets in a big way to help someone. I sincerely appreciate every donation. As important was Amara finding Michael Kielsky (I think Natasha and Robert Bradbury might have also been involved). Without his able representation, chances are I would still be in jail if not being shipped off to Riverside. I am really annoyed at scientology distracting me at this time. In the process of writing a novel set a hundred years in the future, I had to come up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to notes so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. Unless there is objection, I might post some of them. They tend to be math heavy. Keith From ben at goertzel.org Sat Feb 10 20:23:42 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Benjamin Goertzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:23:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <20070210184954.GI21677@leitl.org> References: <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> <000601c74d36$14b5a5d0$80bd1f97@archimede> <20070210182045.GF21677@leitl.org> <3cf171fe0702101031y61274711hde9a72a2eb2e31ba@mail.gmail.com> <20070210184954.GI21677@leitl.org> Message-ID: <3cf171fe0702101223t1a3884bdqf57c6677ae95ee1e@mail.gmail.com> > > There are other papers presenting such comparisons however, e.g. > > The point is that the experimenters didn't seem to have ran > such a control in their own setup. If true, this is a cardinal > mistake. Completely inexcusable. You simply Don't Do It. This control experiment has been run many times, however. So far as I know, no one ever reported big bursts of heat production using ordinary water rather than heavy water. I am not an expert on experimental design in this domain, but from what I read in Beaudette's book, different researchers chose to use different sorts of controls; and some did use the kind that you suggest. > > Y. Arata and Y-C Zhang, "Anomalous difference between reaction > > energies generated within D20-cell and H20 Cell", Jpn. J. Appl. Phys > > 37, L1274 (1998) > > Have you read it? No, I just picked it out because Arata's work is discussed in Beaudette's book, and the title mentioned the type of control experiment you mentioned. Also, I would suggest you look at McKubre's papers, at the lenr-canr archive. >From what I can tell he is a good researcher; he is at SRI which is a high-quality institution, and he worked on CF for many years (and still is, I think). A number of his works in the area are available on that site. I would be curious if you have complaints about the quality of his work. -- Ben From ben at goertzel.org Sat Feb 10 20:30:03 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Benjamin Goertzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:30:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) In-Reply-To: <3cf171fe0702101223t1a3884bdqf57c6677ae95ee1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org> <000601c74d36$14b5a5d0$80bd1f97@archimede> <20070210182045.GF21677@leitl.org> <3cf171fe0702101031y61274711hde9a72a2eb2e31ba@mail.gmail.com> <20070210184954.GI21677@leitl.org> <3cf171fe0702101223t1a3884bdqf57c6677ae95ee1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3cf171fe0702101230q68e3944ege06510c2bf781259@mail.gmail.com> Eugen, Here is a paper by McKubre that compares heavy vs. light water results for CF type experiments http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHisothermala.pdf It was written almost 17 years ago. Ben On 2/10/07, Benjamin Goertzel wrote: > > > There are other papers presenting such comparisons however, e.g. > > > > The point is that the experimenters didn't seem to have ran > > such a control in their own setup. If true, this is a cardinal > > mistake. Completely inexcusable. You simply Don't Do It. > > This control experiment has been run many times, however. > > So far as I know, no one ever reported big bursts of heat production > using ordinary water rather than heavy water. > > I am not an expert on experimental design in this domain, but from > what I read in Beaudette's book, different researchers chose to use > different sorts of controls; and some did use the kind that you suggest. > > > > Y. Arata and Y-C Zhang, "Anomalous difference between reaction > > > energies generated within D20-cell and H20 Cell", Jpn. J. Appl. Phys > > > 37, L1274 (1998) > > > > Have you read it? > > No, I just picked it out because Arata's work is discussed in Beaudette's book, > and the title mentioned the type of control experiment you mentioned. > > Also, I would suggest you look at McKubre's papers, at the lenr-canr archive. > > From what I can tell he is a good researcher; he is at SRI which is a > high-quality institution, and he worked on CF for many years (and > still is, I think). > > A number of his works in the area are available on that site. > > I would be curious if you have complaints about the quality of his work. > > -- Ben > From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Feb 10 23:14:30 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:14:30 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210171229.03fb5e28@satx.rr.com> At 02:00 PM 2/10/2007 -0500, Keith wrote: > I had to come >up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to notes >so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. Send them to Richard Branson, collect $25 million. Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Feb 11 00:48:39 2007 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:48:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210171229.03fb5e28@satx.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20070210194648.03b526c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> At 05:14 PM 2/10/2007 -0600, Damien wrote: >At 02:00 PM 2/10/2007 -0500, Keith wrote: > > > I had to come > >up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to notes > >so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. > >Send them to Richard Branson, collect $25 million. Any though as to how one might show something to Richard Branson? If he is like any other wealthy person he has layers of buffers around him. Keith Henson From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Feb 11 01:19:23 2007 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:19:23 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210191822.022839c8@satx.rr.com> At 07:48 PM 2/10/2007 -0500, Keith wrote: > > > > > I had to come > > >up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to notes > > >so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. > > > >Send them to Richard Branson, collect $25 million. > >Any though as to how one might show something to Richard Branson? why, yes, in general terms: Airline tycoon Richard Branson has announced a $US25 million ($A32m) prize for the first person to come up with a way of scrubbing greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere in the battle to beat global warming. Flanked by climate campaigners former US vice-president Al Gore and British ex-diplomat Crispin Tickell, Sir Richard said he hoped the Virgin Earth Challenge would spur innovative and creative thought to save mankind from self-destruction. The prize will initially be open for five years, with ideas assessed by a panel of judges including Sir Richard, Mr Gore and Mr Tickell as well as Australian environmentalist Tim Flannery, US climate scientist James Hansen and Briton James Lovelock. "Man created the problem and therefore man should solve the problem," he said. "Unless we can devise a way of removing CO 2 (carbon dioxide) from the Earth's atmosphere we will lose half of all species on Earth, all the coral reefs, 100 million people will be displaced, farmlands will become deserts and rainforests wastelands." Sir Richard rejected suggestions that he, as an airline owner, was being hypocritical in offering the prize. "I could ground my airline today, but British Airways would simply take its place," he said, noting that he was investing in cleaner engines and fuels. Top scientists predict that global average temperatures will rise by between 1.8 and four degrees this century due to human activities such as burning fossil fuels, putting millions at risk from rising sea levels, floods, famines and storms. Mr Gore, whose campaign film An Inconvenient Truth has helped spread the message, said all science showed something was drastically wrong but that Armageddon was not inevitable. The winner must devise a way of removing 1 billion tonnes of carbon gases a year from the atmosphere for 10 years ? with $US5 million ($AS6.4m) of the prize being paid at the start and the rest at the end. If no winner is identified after five years the judges can decide to extend the period. "This is the world's first deliberate attempt at planetary engineering," Dr Flannery said via video-link from Sydney. "We are at the last moment. Once we reach the tipping point it will have been taken out of our hands." REUTERS From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 01:43:48 2007 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:13:48 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210191822.022839c8@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210191822.022839c8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0702101743v5b90d308j32f3aa92abfdedb@mail.gmail.com> Couldn't we darken the atmosphere to counteract the greenhouse effect? Kind of nuclear winter vs global warming... Emlyn On 11/02/07, Damien Broderick wrote: > > At 07:48 PM 2/10/2007 -0500, Keith wrote: > > > > > > > I had to come > > > >up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to > notes > > > >so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. > > > > > >Send them to Richard Branson, collect $25 million. > > > >Any though as to how one might show something to Richard Branson? > > why, yes, in general terms: > > > Airline tycoon Richard Branson has announced a > $US25 million ($A32m) prize for the first person > to come up with a way of scrubbing greenhouse > gases out of the atmosphere in the battle to beat global warming. > > Flanked by climate campaigners former US > vice-president Al Gore and British ex-diplomat > Crispin Tickell, Sir Richard said he hoped the > Virgin Earth Challenge would spur innovative and > creative thought to save mankind from self-destruction. > > The prize will initially be open for five years, > with ideas assessed by a panel of judges > including Sir Richard, Mr Gore and Mr Tickell as > well as Australian environmentalist Tim Flannery, > US climate scientist James Hansen and Briton > James Lovelock. "Man created the problem and > therefore man should solve the problem," he said. > > "Unless we can devise a way of removing CO 2 > (carbon dioxide) from the Earth's atmosphere we > will lose half of all species on Earth, all the > coral reefs, 100 million people will be > displaced, farmlands will become deserts and rainforests wastelands." > > Sir Richard rejected suggestions that he, as an > airline owner, was being hypocritical in offering > the prize. "I could ground my airline today, but > British Airways would simply take its place," he > said, noting that he was investing in cleaner engines and fuels. > > Top scientists predict that global average > temperatures will rise by between 1.8 and four > degrees this century due to human activities such > as burning fossil fuels, putting millions at risk > from rising sea levels, floods, famines and storms. > > Mr Gore, whose campaign film An Inconvenient > Truth has helped spread the message, said all > science showed something was drastically wrong > but that Armageddon was not inevitable. > > The winner must devise a way of removing 1 > billion tonnes of carbon gases a year from the > atmosphere for 10 years ? with $US5 million > ($AS6.4m) of the prize being paid at the start and the rest at the end. > > If no winner is identified after five years the > judges can decide to extend the period. > > "This is the world's first deliberate attempt at > planetary engineering," Dr Flannery said via > video-link from Sydney. "We are at the last > moment. Once we reach the tipping point it will > have been taken out of our hands." > > REUTERS > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070211/ad100a10/attachment-0001.html From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sun Feb 11 01:33:49 2007 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:33:49 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070210194648.03b526c8@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <003401c74d7c$b2e1e2a0$0200a8c0@Nano> Well here is the home page for the challenge: http://www.virginearth.com/ Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html At 05:14 PM 2/10/2007 -0600, Damien wrote: >At 02:00 PM 2/10/2007 -0500, Keith wrote: > > > I had to come > >up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to notes > >so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. > >Send them to Richard Branson, collect $25 million. Any though as to how one might show something to Richard Branson? If he is like any other wealthy person he has layers of buffers around him. Keith Henson _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070210/21fc69fb/attachment.html From ben at goertzel.org Sun Feb 11 01:48:33 2007 From: ben at goertzel.org (Benjamin Goertzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:48:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210191822.022839c8@satx.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210191822.022839c8@satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <3cf171fe0702101748h2f259b6br633789c58f94a43b@mail.gmail.com> Keith, If you have a clearly articulated idea that makes sense, it can be gotten in front of Richard Branson. Getting in front of rich people is not easy but it's far from impossible either; I have done it for other purposes a couple times.... Social networking is powerful... -- Ben On 2/10/07, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 07:48 PM 2/10/2007 -0500, Keith wrote: > > > > > > > I had to come > > > >up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to notes > > > >so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. > > > > > >Send them to Richard Branson, collect $25 million. > > > >Any though as to how one might show something to Richard Branson? > > why, yes, in general terms: > > > Airline tycoon Richard Branson has announced a > $US25 million ($A32m) prize for the first person > to come up with a way of scrubbing greenhouse > gases out of the atmosphere in the battle to beat global warming. > > Flanked by climate campaigners former US > vice-president Al Gore and British ex-diplomat > Crispin Tickell, Sir Richard said he hoped the > Virgin Earth Challenge would spur innovative and > creative thought to save mankind from self-destruction. > > The prize will initially be open for five years, > with ideas assessed by a panel of judges > including Sir Richard, Mr Gore and Mr Tickell as > well as Australian environmentalist Tim Flannery, > US climate scientist James Hansen and Briton > James Lovelock. "Man created the problem and > therefore man should solve the problem," he said. > > "Unless we can devise a way of removing CO 2 > (carbon dioxide) from the Earth's atmosphere we > will lose half of all species on Earth, all the > coral reefs, 100 million people will be > displaced, farmlands will become deserts and rainforests wastelands." > > Sir Richard rejected suggestions that he, as an > airline owner, was being hypocritical in offering > the prize. "I could ground my airline today, but > British Airways would simply take its place," he > said, noting that he was investing in cleaner engines and fuels. > > Top scientists predict that global average > temperatures will rise by between 1.8 and four > degrees this century due to human activities such > as burning fossil fuels, putting millions at risk > from rising sea levels, floods, famines and storms. > > Mr Gore, whose campaign film An Inconvenient > Truth has helped spread the message, said all > science showed something was drastically wrong > but that Armageddon was not inevitable. > > The winner must devise a way of removing 1 > billion tonnes of carbon gases a year from the > atmosphere for 10 years ? with $US5 million > ($AS6.4m) of the prize being paid at the start and the rest at the end. > > If no winner is identified after five years the > judges can decide to extend the period. > > "This is the world's first deliberate attempt at > planetary engineering," Dr Flannery said via > video-link from Sydney. "We are at the last > moment. Once we reach the tipping point it will > have been taken out of our hands." > > REUTERS > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sun Feb 11 02:01:55 2007 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:01:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World Message-ID: <005101c74d81$39479160$0200a8c0@Nano> Also found this: Sir Richard Branson, Virgin Management Limited, 120 Campden Hill Road, London W8 7AR from here: http://www.virginradio.co.uk/about_us/faq/ Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html From: Gina Miller Well here is the home page for the challenge: http://www.virginearth.com/ Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html At 05:14 PM 2/10/2007 -0600, Damien wrote: >At 02:00 PM 2/10/2007 -0500, Keith wrote: > > > I had to come > >up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to notes > >so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. > >Send them to Richard Branson, collect $25 million. Any though as to how one might show something to Richard Branson? If he is like any other wealthy person he has layers of buffers around him. Keith Henson _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070210/8e88352d/attachment.html From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Feb 11 03:29:02 2007 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:29:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World In-Reply-To: <3cf171fe0702101748h2f259b6br633789c58f94a43b@mail.gmail.co m> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210191822.022839c8@satx.rr.com> <3cf171fe0702101748h2f259b6br633789c58f94a43b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070210212654.0422dbd8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 07:48 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote: >Keith, > >If you have a clearly articulated idea that makes sense, it can be >gotten in front of Richard Branson. Getting in front of rich people >is not easy but it's far from impossible either; I have done it for >other purposes a couple times.... Social networking is powerful... I LOVE this challenge/mission! I'm going to be thinking about this for a while ... I wonder if he is a friend of Sir Bob Geldlof who I have a direct connection with. Does anyone know if they are linked on any project? Natasha Natasha Vita-More PhD Candidate, Planetary Collegium Proactionary Principle Core Group, Extropy Institute Member, Association of Professional Futurists Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture If you draw a circle in the sand and study only what's inside the circle, then that is a closed-system perspective. If you study what is inside the circle and everything outside the circle, then that is an open system perspective. - Buckminster Fuller -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070210/e287bace/attachment.html From jonkc at att.net Sun Feb 11 06:37:31 2007 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:37:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Elvis Sightings (2) References: <20070210113413.GQ21677@leitl.org><000601c74d36$14b5a5d0$80bd1f97@archimede><20070210182045.GF21677@leitl.org><3cf171fe0702101031y61274711hde9a72a2eb2e31ba@mail.gmail.com><20070210184954.GI21677@leitl.org> <3cf171fe0702101223t1a3884bdqf57c6677ae95ee1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005101c74da7$2168ec30$0a054e0c@MyComputer> "Benjamin Goertzel" > This control experiment has been run many times, however. Thank you, you have provided a perfect example of why cold fusion "research" is so incredibly crappy, and ESP "research" is even worse; the idea that a control experiment is a luxury and not a necessity. But then, if you want to find something that doesn't exist it's best not to be too skilled in the art of experimentation. > A number of his works in the area are available on that site. Yes, on that site. Not in that respected peer reviewed journal, but on that site. > From what I can tell he is a good researcher And how did you determine that he was a good researcher, from ESP? Or did it come to you in a dream? It's not peer reviewed, there is no way to know if he did anything at all except sit at a terminal and upload a ASCII sequence onto a website. That is the sum total of what we know of what he did. That's it. I could easily post to a friendly website and claim to have invented a perpetual motion machine. I could then dream up experiments I claim to have actually performed and supply a long list of data I claim the experiments produced. Of course all that data would support the idea that perpetual motion is possible. It wouldn't be difficult to do, not difficult at all, after all it's not peer reviewed. I don't know what to say, it's like something out of Monty Python. I can just picture John Cleese having a transcendental experience when he sees a magician at a child's birthday party pull a quarter out of a kid's ear. Have a little skepticism people! John K Clark From amara at amara.com Sun Feb 11 06:49:23 2007 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 07:49:23 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:00:00 -0500 >From: Keith Henson >I sincerely appreciate every donation. > >As important was Amara finding Michael Kielsky (I think Natasha and Robert >Bradbury might have also been involved). > No, it's not what you think. Please read your private email where I say how it came about. At the end many^n pitched in here and elsewhere to give the result you had. It wasn't only money that they gave. You can read the record on the extropy-chat list last weekend to get an idea. Must catch a plane now. Amara From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 08:14:25 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:14:25 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Partisans and EP In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20070210113546.03a66e28@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20070210113546.03a66e28@pop.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On 2/10/07, Keith Henson wrote: > As important was Amara finding Michael Kielsky (I think Natasha and Robert > Bradbury might have also been involved). I spoke with him briefly and after discussing things a bit with him and determining his Libertarian party affiliation thought he might be a good person to involve. He also seemed to have a good legal strategy. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070211/a4b28525/attachment.html From robert.bradbury at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 09:08:24 2007 From: robert.bradbury at gmail.com (Robert Bradbury) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:08:24 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Energy & Global Warming [was: Partisans and EP] Message-ID: On 2/10/07, Keith Henson wrote: > I am really annoyed at scientology distracting me at this time. In the > process of writing a novel set a hundred years in the future, I had to come > up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That led to notes so > extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. I'm not so sure there is the "energy" crisis that people typically think there is. The U.S., Europe, Russia, China, and India all have the technology to go nuclear. Newer reactor designs are safer. Reactors to breed U or fuel recycling could provide a multi-hundred year source of non-global warming electricity. Atomic based electricity can give you hydrogen even if you don't want to go solar. Where nanotech (or bionanotech) really helps is allowing you to do low cost pure isotopic separation to allow inexpensive nuclear transmutation of radioactive isotopes into stable isotopes (making the "waste" problem disappear). The same is true with solar electric. We have the technology now to do 35+% efficient conversion and universities are being funded to push this to ~50%. What we lack is sufficient factory production of solar panels to make the costs low enough and the conversion process fast enough for it to happen in less than a few decades. While SPS are a good idea it is a much more expensive technology until you have the factories available to manufacture the required quantities of carbon nanotubes *cheaply*. For the next several decades, I would expect the costs of the factories to build the nanotubes would significantly exeed the costs of factories to build the solar electric or solar thermal cells. Interesting numbers to know would be the tons of CNT required for a space elevator vs. tons of Si+Ge+As (or CdS) required to have ground based solar cells. It is also true that for SPS you are going to need the solar cell manufacturing capacity *anyway* because going into space is only going to buy you a factor of 2-3 in solar energy availability [1]. France has already shown you can go nuclear electric (if you have the political will to do so). Brazil has shown you can go ethanol fuel. Spain appears to be going in the direction of wind electric. If you look at the economic shifts that Britain and the U.S. underwent in WWII it is clear that emphasis could be shifted very rapidly if there were a political commitment to do so. The "energy crisis" is is a political *leadership* problem. (If you look at recent proposals to ban incandescent bulbs entirely in CA and in state buildings in NJ you can see some law makers are starting to see the light.) If I were a VC looking at a business plan for SPS vs. ground based solar I'd want to see an analysis of the costs of building the CNT factories + space solar cell factories vs. the costs of ground based solar cell factories to accomplish converting the U.S. totally to solar electric in 20 years. Now, this leaves aside that the U.S. could become significantly more energy efficient than it currently is. The NY Times had a recent article comparing U.S. per capita energy consumption with Japan's and we could make a significant improvement simply becoming more energy conscious (as many European nations are). I stopped paying any attention to the "global warming" problem after I realized that you could solve it seemed that you could solve it simply by fertilizing the oceans [2]. So one would want to compare costs between fertilizing the oceans and pumping the CO2 from coal or gas based power plants back underground (and the costs of space elevators & SPS). As an important general rule, I would argue that any system of energy production that is based on self-replicating nanosystems (corn, switchgrass, oceanic bacteria, solar ponds + synthetic biology based bacteria) is going to be significantly cheaper than any system that does *not* rely on extremely high levels of automation to produce the required infrastructure. (And designing that automated production infrastructure usually requires a lot of human intelligence in up-front costs.) That *still* doesn't solve the vehicle fuel problem unless you convert all of the vehicles to electric (which we appear to have the technology to do currently but not cheaply enough to make it acceptable). Or as Brazil has shown you could convert to a sustainable fuel supply for vehicles which relies on taking carbon out of the atmosphere and returning the carbon to the atmosphere rather than on non-sustainable methods based on harvesting the resources resulting from ancient solar energy and the activity of plants and bacteria producing hydrocarbons that are now either underground or on the ocean floor. I would also note, that while there are clear solutions to the energy needs, and there is an argument that global warming would actually make *more* land area available for human habitation, there are less clear solutions for world hunger [3] (which is the cause of millions of deaths annually). SPS are *not* going to do anything to solve that problem unless you simultaneously intend to use all of that excess electricity to illuminate farms at night or produce synthetic food using the electricity they would provide. In contrast, the systems *are* already in place to take advantage of ocean fertilization because an increase in oceanic bacterial numbers translates into increased numbers of larger organisms that can be used to feed more people cheaply (we already have infrastructure to harvest the oceans which tends to sit idle due to the problem of overfishing). Robert 1. I think solar insolation is ~1300 W/m^2 above the atmosphere and more like 400-500 W/m^2 at the Earth's surface (largely because the UV and IR are aborbed). Whether you could take advantage of the UV & IR in space is an open question because more complex cell designs would probably be required. 2. "Global Warming is a Red Herring" (2002) http://www.aeiveos.com:8080/~bradbury/Papers/GWiaRH.html (It should be updated, but it makes lays out the approach.) 3. http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070211/71c5c607/attachment.html From eugen at leitl.org Sun Feb 11 10:57:07 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:57:07 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Save the World In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0702101743v5b90d308j32f3aa92abfdedb@mail.gmail.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070210191822.022839c8@satx.rr.com> <710b78fc0702101743v5b90d308j32f3aa92abfdedb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070211105707.GT21677@leitl.org> On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 12:13:48PM +1030, Emlyn wrote: > > Couldn't we darken the atmosphere to counteract the greenhouse effect? > Kind of nuclear winter vs global warming... Instead of investing in cleaner jet fuels, he'd better 1) make them burn dirty, preferrably inject ice nucleators 2) fly high, as high as possible 3) long-term, fly with synfuel or cryogenic hydrogen as fuel, made from renewable sources Global dimming needs a comeback. As to "scrubbing greenhouse gaess out of the atmosphere", that's a red herring. They're are already being rather efficiently scrubbed, what is needed is reducing our emissions. And it doesn't take 25 megabucks to figure out how, we already know. > > > > Emlyn > > > On 11/02/07, Damien Broderick <[1]thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote: > > At 07:48 PM 2/10/2007 -0500, Keith wrote: > > > > > > > I had to come > > > >up with a way the energy and carbon crisis was solved. That > led to notes > > > >so extensive as to almost constitute a business plan. > > > > > >Send them to Richard Branson, collect $25 million. > > > >Any though as to how one might show something to Richard Branson? > why, yes, in general terms: > Airline tycoon Richard Branson has announced a > $US25 million ($A32m) prize for the first person > to come up with a way of scrubbing greenhouse > gases out of the atmosphere in the battle to beat global warming. > Flanked by climate campaigners former US > vice-president Al Gore and British ex-diplomat > Crispin Tickell, Sir Richard said he hoped the > Virgin Earth Challenge would spur innovative and > creative thought to save mankind from self-destruction. > The prize will initially be open for five years, > with ideas assessed by a panel of judges > including Sir Richard, Mr Gore and Mr Tickell as > well as Australian environmentalist Tim Flannery, > US climate scientist James Hansen and Briton > James Lovelock. "Man created the problem and > therefore man should solve the problem," he said. > "Unless we can devise a way of removing CO 2 > (carbon dioxide) from the Earth's atmosphere we > will lose half of all species on Earth, all the > coral reefs, 100 million people will be > displaced, farmlands will become deserts and rainforests > wastelands." > Sir Richard rejected suggestions that he, as an > airline owner, was being hypocritical in offering > the prize. "I could ground my airline today, but > British Airways would simply take its place," he > said, noting that he was investing in cleaner engines and fuels. > Top scientists predict that global average > temperatures will rise by between 1.8 and four > degrees this century due to human activities such > as burning fossil fuels, putting millions at risk > from rising sea levels, floods, famines and storms. > Mr Gore, whose campaign film An Inconvenient > Truth has helped spread the message, said all > science showed something was drastically wrong > but that Armageddon was not inevitable. > The winner must devise a way of removing 1 > billion tonnes of carbon gases a year from the > atmosphere for 10 years with $US5 million > ($AS6.4m) of the prize being paid at the start and the rest at the > end. > If no winner is identified after five years the > judges can decide to extend the period. > "This is the world's first deliberate attempt at > planetary engineering," Dr Flannery said via > video-link from Sydney. "We are at the last > moment. Once we reach the tipping point it will > have been taken out of our hands." > REUTERS > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > [2]extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > [3]http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > References > > 1. mailto:thespike at satx.rr.com > 2. mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > 3. http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070211/36e6dce1/attachment.bin From eugen at leitl.org Sun Feb 11 12:26:18 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:26:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Energy & Global Warming [was: Partisans and EP] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070211122617.GA21677@leitl.org> On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 09:08:24AM +0000, Robert Bradbury wrote: > I'm not so sure there is the "energy" crisis that people typically > think there is. The U.S., Europe, Russia, China, and India all have > the technology to go nuclear. Newer reactor designs are safer. Nuclear has bigger problems than fossil. For one, high-grade uranium ore deposits are limited and localized (peak uranium). If you integrate over the entire life cycle, starting with the mine, tails remediation, processing, isotope enrichment, building the plant, operating it, and decomissioning it, you'll see that nuclear is not exactly emission-neutral, nor particularly cheap. As an energy source it's as subsidized as they come. Okay, thorium doesn't have most of such problems, but the funds required for R&D to make it a viable alternative to uranium fission would be much, much better spent on renewable infrastructure and R&D. > Reactors to breed U or fuel recycling could provide a multi-hundred Breeders are unsafe. Recycling is reasonably dirty; liquid-core thorium might navigate around such problems, but then, it isn't there. > year source of non-global warming electricity. Atomic based > electricity can give you hydrogen even if you don't want to go solar. Why do we need hydrogen, especially right now? If all new cars are required by law to be able to handle M90 (and E90, though that's idiotic) it would take a while until world output (32 MT/a in 2004) of methanol is stepped up. Methane is almost hydrogen, newer methanol routes through direct methane oxidation avoid the lossy syngas/Fischer-Tropsch route, DMFC cars are at least twice energy efficient than plain ICEs. PV/EV alone is long-term sufficient to solve the vehicular emission problem. > this to ~50%. What we lack is sufficient factory production of solar > panels to make the costs low enough and the conversion process fast Right now the solar growth has been so rapid, silicon has become a scarce commodity. The markets are already hard-pressed to put up with the growth, so further forecast is very sunny. > France has already shown you can go nuclear electric (if you have the I don't think emulating France right now is smart idea, unless you've got large domestic pechblende deposits (of course, you can just sell them, too, and import the rest). > political will to do so). Brazil has shown you can go ethanol fuel. Bioethanol doesn't work. What Brazil has shown that if you don't have a native chemical industry, but lots of cheap labor and suitable climate and don't mind putting in a lot of energy if you want to have is liquid fuel you can do it. This might (kinda, sorta) work for parts of Africa. For everyone else, it's a case of heating your house with dollar bills. > Spain appears to be going in the direction of wind electric. If you Wind is already cost-effective in specific locations (largely, coastal and mountain regions). It faces the problem of all renewable: the current grid is too coarse-grained and too centralistic to deal with unpredictable fine-grained local input. I don't think the problem is reformable, at least it's worth investing into it. It might make more sense to build up a new parallel grid bottom up, fine-grained and with control and markets built-in. > look at the economic shifts that Britain and the U.S. underwent in > WWII it is clear that emphasis could be shifted very rapidly if there "very rapidly" doesn't work, unless there's a war. Then some selected things suddenly "work", to the great detriment of everything else. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20070211/0007afeb/attachment.bin From asa at nada.kth.se Sun Feb 11 13:25:19 2007 From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:25:19 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Energy & Global Warming [was: Partisans and EP] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53910.86.130.31.99.1171200319.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Robert Bradbury wrote: > I stopped paying any attention to the "global warming" problem after I > realized that you could solve it seemed that you could solve it simply by > fertilizing the oceans [2]. Experiments in doing so have shown that it is harder than it looks. Those pesky algal blooms seem to misbehave quite a bit. Probably not impossible to do, but it would require a lot of work. My own current favorite carbon sink is fertilizing soils and lakes with olivin. It both neutralizes overly acid soils (making it a good candidate for cleaning up eastern europe) and absorbs carbon dioxide. R. D. Schuiling and P. Krijgsman, Enhanced Weathering: An Effective and Cheap Tool to Sequester Co2, Climatic Change, Volume 74, Numbers 1-3 / January, 2006 http://www.springerlink.com/content/78528604337v3773/ I noted that Nature this week (or was it last week?) in their coverage of the IPCC admitted that research into climate change adaptation had been woefully ignored. The stated reason was that the emission reduction people felt that any alternative to reducing emission would only encourage 'bad habits', so they did their best to cucoo out geoengineering and attempts to figure out in how to live in a climate changed world. -- Anders Sandberg, Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University From brent.allsop at comcast.net Sun Feb 11 13:11:20 2007 From: brent.allsop at comcast.net (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 06:11:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Multi Homing? Message-ID: <200702111327.l1BDRBxs014821@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Extropians, Do any of you guys "Multi Home" your home network internet connection? I currently have Comcast cable as my primary connection, but would like to include a Quest DSL modem redundant connection to increase reliability and bandwidth. (Comcast has been down for a week or so twice last year.) I would also like to upgrade to gigabit in my home so I can transfer live video and stuff. One possibility I see is getting a ?dual wan? capable router that does ?load balancing?. There seems to be lots of these out there, but the only one that supports gigabit on the LAN side seems to be NetGear's FVS124G: http://www.netgear.com/Products/VPNandSSL/WiredVPNFirewallRouters/FVS124G.as px But from the reviews this sounds like it might be a very unreliable box? Some other friends of mine are saying I should just configure my Linux box to have several NIC cards and have it handle the WAN connections and NAT services... Are these the only two possibilities? Which of these would be the best for someone that is not a professional network administrator? And which would run reliably without having the router crash all the time?? Any ideas, tips, or personal success stories would be greatly appreciated? Thanks Brent Allsop -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.35/680 - Release Date: 2/10/2007 9:15 PM From eugen at leitl.org Sun Feb 11 13:44:31 2007 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:44:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Energy & Global Warming [was: Partisans and EP] In-Reply-To: <53910.86.130.31.99.1171200319.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> References: <53910.86.130.31.99.1171200319.squirrel@webmail.csc.kth.se> Message-ID: <20070211134431.GC21677@leitl.org> On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 02:25:19PM +0100, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > I stopped paying any attention to the "global warming" problem after I > > realized that you could solve it seemed that you could solve it simply by > > fertilizing the oceans [2]. > > Experiments in doing so have shown that it is harder than it looks. Those > pesky algal blooms seem to misbehave quite a bit. Probably not impossible > to do, but it would require a lot of work. By the way, there happens to be a review on it in one of the recent Science Magazines: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/315/5812/612 cience 2 February 2007: Vol. 315. no. 5812, pp. 612 - 617 DOI: 10.1126/science.1131669 Prev | Table of Contents | Next Review Mesoscale Iron Enrichment Experiments 1993-2005: Synthesis and Future Directions P. W. Boyd,1* T. Jickells,2 C. S. Law,3 S. Blain,4 E. A. Boyle,5 K. O. Buesseler,6 K. H. Coale,7 J. J. Cullen,8 H. J. W. de Baar,9 M. Follows,5 M. Harvey,3 C. Lancelot,10 M. Levasseur,11 N. P. J. Owens,12 R. Pollard,13 R. B. Rivkin,14 J. Sarmiento,15 V. Schoemann,10 V. Smetacek,16 S. Takeda,17 A. Tsuda,18 S. Turner,2 A. J. Watson2 Since the mid-1980s, our understanding of nutrient limitation of oceanic primary production has radically changed. Mesoscale iron addition experiments (FeAXs) have unequivocally shown that iron supply limits production in one-third of the world ocean, where surface macronutrient concentrations are perennially high. The findings of these 12 FeAXs also reveal that iron supply exerts controls on the dynamics of plankton blooms, which in turn affect the biogeochemical cycles of carbon, nitrogen, silicon, and sulfur and ultimately influence the Earth climate system. However, extrapolation of the key results of FeAXs to regional and seasonal scales in some cases is limited because of differing modes of iron supply in FeAXs and in the modern and paleo-oceans. New research directions include quantification of the coupling of oceanic iron and carbon biogeochemistry. 1 National Institute for Water and Atmospheric Research (NIWA) Centre for Chemical and Physical Oceanography, Department of Chemistry, University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand. 2 School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, UK. 3 NIWA, Evans Bay Parade, Kilbirnie, Wellington, New Zealand. 4 Laboratoire d'Oc?anographie et de Biog?ochimie, Campus de Luminy, Case 901, F-16288 Marseille Cedex 09, France. 5 Department of Earth, Atmosphere and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. 6 Marine Chemistry and Geochemistry, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, MA 02543, USA. 7 Moss Landing Marine Laboratories, 8272 Moss Landing Road, Moss Landing, CA 95039, USA. 8 Department of Oceanography, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia B3H 4J1, Canada. 9 Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research, 1790 AB Den Burg, Netherlands. 10 Ecologie des Syst?mes Aquatiques, Universit? Libre de Bruxelles, B-1050 Bruxelles, Belgium. 11 D?partement de Biologie (Qu?bec-Oc?an), Universit? Laval, Ste-Foy, Qu?bec G1K 7P4, Canada. 12 Plymouth Marine Laboratory, Prospect Place, The Hoe, Plymouth PL1 3DH, UK. 13 National Oceanography Centre, Southampton, University of Southampton, Southampton SO14 3ZH, UK. 14 Ocean Sciences Centre, Memorial University of Newfoundland, St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7, Canada. 15 Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences Program, Princeton University, Sayre Hall, Forrestal Campus, Princeton, NJ 08544, USA. 16 Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research, 27570 Bremerhaven, Germany. 17 Graduate School of Agricultural and Life Sciences, University of Tokyo, Yayoi 1-1-1, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-8657, Japan. 18 Ocean Research Institute, University of Tokyo, Tokyo 113-8657, Japan. * To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: pboyd at alkali.otago.ac.nz The work of John Martin (1, 2) sharply focused attention on the role of iron (Fe) in ocean productivity, biogeochemical cycles, and global climate by proposing "that phytoplankton growth in major nutrient-rich waters is limited by iron deficiency" (2). The candidate mechanism of Martin (1, 2) points to the importance of changes, over geological time, in the magnitude of macronutrient uptake by phytoplankton in waters where macronutrient concentrations are perennially high (1). Specifically, Fe supply to the ocean was much higher during glacial maxima than at present (1), and it is estimated that the increase in Fe-induced productivity could have contributed perhaps 30% of the 80-ppm drawdown in atmospheric CO2 observed during glacial maxima by enhancing the ocean's biological pump (3). Early results from shipboard incubations in high nutrient?low chlorophyll (HNLC) waters presented compelling but equivocal evidence that phytoplankton growth was limited by Fe availability (2). After rigorous discussion, a consensus was reached (4) that, because shipboard experiments have artifacts, mesoscale Fe addition experiments (FeAXs) offered the best approach to resolve questions about the role of Fe in ocean productivity, C cycling, and climate. The main objective of FeAXs was to test whether Fe enrichment would increase primary productivity in HNLC waters, but additional questions focused on how Fe enrichment would affect nutrient use and export (1). The era of mesoscale Fe enrichments started with IronEx I, where Fe and the conservative tracer SF6 (5) were added to tropical HNLC surface waters (6). A further 11 FeAXs of similar design (7, 8) in different HNLC regions (Fig. 1) later confirmed the capability to study pelagic ecology and biogeochemical cycling in a discrete water parcel over time and space scales of weeks and kilometers. Complementary approaches include ship-based observations of persistent blooms within HNLC waters (Fig. 1), termed here FeNXs (Fe natural enrichment experiments), that are driven by sustained and localized Fe enrichment (9). Figure 1 Fig. 1. Annual surface mixed-layer nitrate concentrations in units of ?mol liter?1 (48), with approximate site locations of FeAXs (white crosses), FeNXs (red crosses), and a joint Fe and P enrichment study of the subtropical LNLC Atlantic Ocean (FeeP; green cross). FeAXs shown are SEEDS I and II (northwest Pacific; same site but symbols are offset), SERIES (northeast Pacific), IronEX I and II (equatorial Pacific; IronEX II is to the left), EisenEx and EIFEX (Atlantic polar waters; EIFEX is directly south of Africa), SOIREE (polar waters south of Australia), SOFEX-S (polar waters south of New Zealand), SOFEX-N (subpolar waters south of New Zealand), and SAGE (subpolar waters nearest to New Zealand). FeNX sites shown are the Galapagos Plume (equatorial Pacific), Antarctic Polar Front (polar Atlantic waters), and the Crozet and Kerguelen plateaus (Indian sector of Southern Ocean; Crozet is to the left of Kerguelen). For the geographical positions of the FeAXs, see (8). FeeP investigated whether N-fixing phytoplankton are simultaneously limited by Fe and P; see Table 1. [View Larger Version of this Image (71K GIF file)] Common Findings in FeAXs FeAXs have each used a common framework (7) that enables comparison of their biogeochemical signatures (Table 1 and tables S1 to S3). The results of FeAXs have substantially increased our understanding of ecological and biogeochemical dynamics and their interrelationships, and many findings are consistent with theory-based predictions of ecosystem dynamics. For example, they have shown that phytoplankton grow faster in warmer open-ocean waters (table S2), as predicted by algal physiological relationships (10), and that blooms across a range of FeAX sites display an inverse relationship between chlorophyll concentration and mixed-layer depth (Table 1), as forecast by theoretical relationships between light penetration and mixed-layer depth (8, 11, 12). More specifically, FeAXs have verified that Fe enrichment enhances primary production from polar to tropical HNLC waters (Table 1) and confirmed that Fe supply has a fundamental role in photosynthesis (photosynthetic competence, table S1), diatom sinking, Fe uptake rates (13), and other physiological processes. FeAXs have demonstrated reduced silica requirements of diatoms when relieved of Fe stress (14), confirming results from bottle experiments (15). Table 1. The main findings from the 12 FeAXs (in chronological order from left to right) conducted between 1993 and 2005 [for additional details, see (8)]. See tables S1 to S3 for further details of initial conditions, ecosystem structure, and biogeochemical responses. Light climate, defined as the mean irradiance available to phytoplankton in the mixed layer, was calculated according to I = I0[1 ? exp(?Kez)]/Kez, where I is mean mixed-layer irradiance (PAR), I0 is the subsurface PAR, Ke is the vertical light attenuation coefficient (m?1), and z is the depth of the upper mixed layer. Dilution rate is the mean growth rate of the SF6-labeled patch over the duration of each FeAX. Each property is expressed volumetrically but can readily be converted to a column integral by using the data on mixed-layer depth (MLD). Terms prefixed with a delta such as {Delta}DIC denote maximum minus initial concentrations; nc, no significant change (relative to the surrounding HNLC waters); blank cells indicate that no data are currently available. The ratio of maximum to minimum primary production is based on column integrals. Property IronEX I (6) IronEX II (30) SOIREE (49) EisenEx (56) SEEDS I (57) SOFEX-S (54, 58) SOFEX-N (58) EIFEX (46) SERIES (17) SEEDS II (59) SAGE (59) FeeP (59) Fe added (kg) 450 450 1750 2350 350 1300 1700 2820 490 480 1100 1840 Temperature (?C) 23 25 2 3 to 4 11 -1 5 4 to 5 13 9 to 12 11.8 21 Season Fall Summer Summer Spring Summer Summer Summer Summer Summer Summer Fall Spring Light climate (?mol quanta m-2 s-1) 254 (max) to 230 (min) 216 to 108 59 to 33 82 to 40 178 to 39 103 to 62 125 to 74 173 to 73 59 to 52 Dilution rate (day-1) 0.27 0.18 0.07 0.04 to 0.43 0.05 0.08 0.1 0.07 to 0.16 0.4 Chlorophyll, t = 0 (mg m-3) 0.2 0.2 0.2 0.5 0.9 0.2 0.3 0.6 0.4 0.8 0.6 0.04 Chlorophyll, maximum (mg m-3) 0.6 3.3 2.3 2.8 23.0 2.5 2.4 3.0 5.5 2.4 1.3 0.07 MLD (m) 35 40* 65* 80* 13 35 45 100 30* 30 70* 30* Bloom phase (duration, days) Evolving (5) subducted Decline (17) Evolving (13) Evolving (21) Evolving (10) Evolving (28) Evolving (27) subducted Partial decline, evolving (37) Decline (25) Evolving (25) No bloom (17) No bloom (7) {delta}DIC (mmol m-3) 6 26 17 14 58 21 13 36 nc <1 {delta}DMS (?mol m-3) 0.8 1.8 2.9 1.3, then to 0{dagger} nc nc Increased 8.5, then to -5.7{dagger} nc nc nc Dominant phytoplankton Mixed Diatom Diatom Diatom Diatom Diatom Mixed Diatom Diatom Mixed Mixed Cyanobacteria Prochlorococcus Export nc increase nc nc nc Increase Increase? Increase Increase nc nc Mesozooplankton stocks Increase{ddagger} Increase nc nc nc nc nc Increase Increase Increase nc nc Primary production (max/min ratio) 4 6 9 4 4 6 10 2 10 2 1.7 * Changes in MLD were observed during the study; the maximum MLD is shown (for initial MLD, see table S1). {dagger} An initial increase in DMS concentration followed by a decline by the end of the study. {ddagger} Based on anecdotal evidence. ? Increased export was mainly associated with a subduction event. These mesoscale experiments have provided detailed time-series observations, within a tracer-labeled parcel of water [i.e., a Lagrangian framework (7)], of open-ocean blooms from initiation through evolution and decline (Table 1). Data collection within a Lagrangian framework gives unparalleled insights into bloom dynamics and clarifies how the interplay of factors such as initial conditions (table S1) and loss processes defines properties such as bloom magnitude, which exhibits a factor of 10 range in chlorophyll concentrations between FeAXs (Table 1). The broad suite of measurements and their high temporal resolution in FeAXs will be a useful tool to better interpret the less highly resolved observations available for naturally occurring blooms [e.g., the Antarctic Environment and Southern Ocean Process Study (AESOPS) (16)]. Furthermore, the high-resolution data sets have enabled the establishment of a mechanistic understanding, in some FeAXs, of the evolution, termination, and decline phases of blooms (17) (Table 1). The durations of these bloom phases provide an estimate of the lag time between the accumulation of phytoplankton C and its subsequent export (17); such an estimate has proved elusive in previous studies (18). This experimental approach has presented a platform to examine in detail the interactions of top-down and bottom-up control?outlined in the ecumenical Fe hypothesis (19)?on phytoplankton community structure. For example, stocks of all phytoplankton groups increased initially upon Fe enrichment, but only the diatoms bloomed (Table 1) by escaping grazing pressure. Thus, unlike bottle incubations, FeAXs offer a holistic approach to studying the entire pelagic food web. This enables assessment of the interplay of ecological processes and the resultant biogeochemical signals, such as Fe-mediated increases in haptophyte abundances (table S2) and consequent faunistic shifts within the microzooplankton (20) (table S2) that lead to changes in dimethyl sulfoniopropionate (DMSP) (20) and dimethyl sulfide (DMS) concentrations (20) (Table 1), respectively. These changes in DMS concentration demonstrate that climate-reactive biogenic gases?in addition to CO2?must be considered to obtain the cumulative effect of Fe enrichment on climate. The scale of FeAXs, and in particular their use of the SF6 tracer, enabled the construction of pelagic biogeochemical budgets for C (17) and Fe (21) under high-Fe conditions. FeAXs have permitted the study of whether speciation controls Fe bioavailability (22), the mechanisms behind changes in the production of Fe-binding ligands (FeBLs) in response to enhanced Fe (table S3), and other aspects of Fe chemistry. The SF6 tracer has also helped demonstrate that the underlying physics at FeAX sites alters the bloom biogeochemical signature both by diluting phytoplankton stocks (Table 1) and by increasing the macronutrient inventory of the patch (table S3). Such patch dilution may result in experimental artifacts including arrested bloom development (23), which leads to reduced macronutrient uptake. Together, the wide range of experimental conditions and resulting breadth of bloom signatures evident from FeAXs (Table 1 and tables S1 to S3) provide an essential data resource to improve existing ecological and biogeochemical models and to develop new ones. For example, a new model of DMS dynamics developed during Subarctic Ecosystem Response to Iron Enrichment Study (SERIES) provides a better understanding of how the complex interplay of physical, photochemical, and biological processes affects the temporal evolution of mixed-layer DMS concentrations (24). Scaling Up the Results from FeAXs A key issue to be addressed is how natural or anthropogenic variability in Fe supply affects ocean biogeochemistry and global climate (25). FeAXs are relatively short-term experiments specifically designed to test whether Fe supply limits primary production in HNLC waters, and therefore they can address this issue only by extrapolation. Here, we consider whether findings from FeAXs can successfully be scaled up temporally (seasonal to geological) and spatially (regional to global). Four issues, addressed below, are central to tests of the validity of such extrapolation. Macronutrient Uptake The degree of Fe-mediated algal uptake of the mixed-layer macronutrient inventory will determine bloom longevity (17) and influence the magnitude of C sequestration (1, 3). FeAXs, on a time scale of weeks, have exhibited a wide range of nutrient uptake (table S3), with depletion of >0.75 and >0.6 of the mixed-layer silicate and nitrate inventory, respectively, in several cases (table S2). Polar FeAXs, although of longer duration (Table 1), have resulted in <0.3 of the macronutrient inventory being used, although inventories at polar FeAX sites are greater than in other HNLC regions (table S2). Fe-mediated diatom blooms in both FeAXs (table S2) and natural conditions (16, 26) can deplete silicate but not nitrate, which has led to bloom decline. SERIES suggests that both Fe supply and diatom species succession, as a result of decreasing silicate concentrations, set the silicate:nitrate uptake stoichiometry (17). Thus, although longer-term Fe enrichment (months) may result in uptake of a greater proportion of the macronutrient inventory, it is difficult to scale up the findings of FeAXs without information on the long-term stability of phytoplankton community structure, such as diatom species succession (17). Mediation of bloom decline via macronutrient depletion means that grazer control of phytoplankton stocks is less likely on the shorter time scales typical of FeAXs. This may also apply in some cases to the Last Glacial Maximum, as abundant diatom resting spores from Southern Ocean sediment cores indicate substantial export from diatom blooms in the Atlantic sector triggered by nutrient exhaustion rather than grazer control (27). Thus, FeAXs may mimic naturally occurring blooms that are transient (weeks) and are terminated by rapid nutrient depletion with consequently little change in the grazer community (17). Bloom Time Scales and Food Web Dynamics FeAX blooms may be subject to zooplankton grazing (Table 1), which would result in less efficient downward export of algal C (20) and an increase in pelagic Fe recycling (28). However, the generation times for grazers range from days (microzooplankton) to months (macrozooplankton), whereas FeAX blooms evolve over 2 to 3 weeks (Table 1). Increased microzooplankton and, in some cases, mesozooplankton abundances (Table 1 and table S2) and subsequent alteration of food web dynamics were evident during FeAX blooms (table S2). If FeAXs were of longer duration, would stocks of large zooplankton increase with sustained Fe-elevated productivity? If so, how would they influence the bloom signature? Heavy grazing pressure, exerted by macrozooplankton, occurs in some upwelling regions (29) where a continuous nutrient supply (months) maintains a high-productivity system. Recent FeNXs, at sites with sustained nutrient supply (9), will reveal whether such an adaptive grazer response occurs during long-term blooms within HNLC waters, and hence whether upscaling the results of FeAXs to sustained naturally occurring blooms (months) is valid. If such an adaptive grazer response is observed, the potential long-term biogeochemical feedbacks of grazer-mediated Fe recycling and reduced export efficiency of algal C should be explored via modeling simulations. Modes of Iron Supply Initial attempts to relate the Fe supply during FeAXs with that in the modern or paleo-ocean (30) were hampered by relatively poor understanding of Fe biogeochemistry. Since the mid-1990s, our understanding has advanced considerably through better estimates of the solubility (31) and upper ocean residence time of aerosol Fe (32), improved regional coverage of dissolved Fe (DFe) concentrations (33), and greater insight into the key role of FeBL in maintaining Fe in the upper ocean (34). Although measuring DFe remains challenging, many technical issues have now been addressed (35). Our improved understanding is reflected in better models of dust depositional fluxes (25), oceanic DFe distributions (36), and the impact of higher Fe supply to the paleo-ocean (14), providing a more realistic picture of Fe supply to HNLC waters both now and in the geological past (Fig. 2). Figure 2 Fig. 2. A comparison for Southern Ocean waters of mechanisms responsible for perturbations in Fe supply. Numbers in each panel: 1) Fe*, the relative magnitude of Fe supply relative to macronutrient supply (36); 2) the mode of Fe supply; 3) the time scale over which surface waters receive increased Fe supply; and 4) the length scales of Fe supply events. (A) Satellite image of a purposeful in situ Southern Ocean FeAX [SOIREE (49)]. (B) An FeNX near Crozet within the HNLC Southern Ocean, where naturally occurring blooms are evident from remote sensing (9). (C) An atmospheric dust deposition event (dust units are g m?2 year?1) in the modern Southern Ocean [e.g., from Patagonia (25)]. (D) Fe supply to the Southern Ocean during the glacial maxima from direct [i.e., higher dust deposition (1, 39)] and/or indirect [i.e., upwelling of waters with higher Fe concentrations (40)] sources. The magnitude of this supply is unknown; hence, Fe* is expressed as < 0. Fe* is defined as Fe* = [Fe] ? {(Fe/P) algal uptake ratio x [PO43?]} (36). If Fe* > 0, primary production is ultimately macronutrient-limited; if Fe* < 0, production is ultimately Fe-limited. The width of red arrows denotes the relative magnitude of changes in Fe supply; the hatched arrows in (D) denote uncertainties about whether Fe supply in the geological past was episodic or sustained (see text). In (B) to (D), downward- and upward-pointing arrows represent atmospheric and oceanic (upwelling) supply, respectively. Consideration of Fe chemistry for each of these modes of supply is beyond the scope of this review, but see (22). [View Larger Version of this Image (71K GIF file)] A comparison of modes of Fe supply in FeAXs, FeNXs, and naturally occurring perturbations (Fig. 2) reveals a wide range in the magnitude, chemistry, residence time, and spatial and temporal scales of Fe supply. Although the pulsed Fe enrichments during FeAXs are analogous to episodic dust events, the total Fe supplied in FeAXs is much larger, and Fe solubility is greater than from dust deposition [(7); see also (31)]. A